The Legend Of Zelda - General Thread

My favorite bits in "Wind Waker" include Link smacking into the Tower of the Gods while it's rising out of the sea, and if you slip on Ice Ring Isle.

If you play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

Demise does specify a curse, but he also explicitly uses the words "an incarnation of my hatred," which I'm pretty sure is meant to mean Ganondorf. There's also the physical resemblance between the two to consider.

I generally say that each video game takes place in an entirely different universe, even the sequels, so if anything contradicts...well, there you go.

If you play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

If Demon King Malladus returned in a modern Zelda would he look like the other two Demon Kings Demise and Ganondorf/Ganon?

"May your heart be your guiding key"

WW/PH!Link is the most personable of all the Links. I love him. And yeah, the "WAUGH!!" sound he makes when he slips on ice lives rent-free in my head.

Actually, Wind Waker has my favorite incarnation of both Link and Zelda. And my favorite portrayal of Ganon. I love when Nintendo goes the extra mile on stuff they don't normally care about, like characterization.

Yes, obviously. My posts reflect my opinions. The extremely common phrase "in fact," here used to express agreement with the broad consensus that a video game is bad, doesn't mean I think it's empirically bad.

Not having a contiguous overworld was a major shakeup. Putting all the side content in a single central town with a one-stop shop was a major shakeup. Motion controls were a major shakeup! No other first-party Nintendo game on the Wii committed that much to motion controls. Skyward Sword deviates from the formula at least as much as Breath of the Wild, just in different ways. If one of those two styles had to stick, I guess I'm glad it was BotW, but I really just want a return to form, with all the classic gimmicks and iconography.

Speaking of combat, I really like that Twilight Princess had you learn new fighting moves. That game has the best combat in the series; I can't believe it's the only one that lets you swing your sword while running. I only wish more than one of the new moves were actually necessary. Imagine a fast-charging enemy like a Helmasaurus that can only be killed with a mortal draw, for instance.

Exactly! He says Link and Zelda's descendants are cursed to always fight "an incarnation of his hate" or something, but not all of their descendants actually fight Ganon. I think it's more of an As Long as There Is Evil thing.

EDIT:

Edited by ThriceCharming on Mar 29th 2024 at 1:30:10 PM

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

I enjoyed Bot W a good bit, and it remains one of my most played games on the Switch, but I've never actually finished the game, I found the side quests lackluster, and I agree that the game rewards often felt unsatisfying. I've also never played Tot K, since it looked like Bot W again but with building elements that just don't interest me.

Given a choice, I'd perfect another game on the pre-Bot W style.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

So basically Toon Link was never the chosen one, he just got mixed up in an adventure because his sister was kidnapped and things just escalated?

If you play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

x3 those are still really minor things in the grand scheme of the classic formula.

Edited by The-Azure-Star-Of-Orion on Mar 29th 2024 at 10:34:58 AM

After 10 year plus years I have the confidence to be here. Let's give it EVERYTHING we've got! It's...PUNISHMENT TIME

Not really in practice most areas in Zelda are mostly segregated outside of the central hub. And in practice Wind Waker more or less does the same thing.

I think people would call this more of a convenience then a shake up

Twilight Princess already existed.

It's generally agreed that SS, while still having some of the classic elements of the series, was indeed the first attempt at Nintendo seeking new conventions to the formula. Unfortunately, it still had many problems on its own, such as the excessive padding, Fi's handholding and the occasional fumbles of the motion controls. Really, when it comes to the series' overall metamorphosis, the only difference between SS and BOTW is that BOTW worked among the masses, hence why they made TOTK (which, if you think about it, mixes elements from BOTW and SS).

Like I said before, I don't dislike either style of Zelda. The only thing I dislike is when one side of the fandom pretends that Nintendo makes these changes out of a whim, when they only do it to address the most common criticisms at the time. Twilight Princess was the response to Wind Waker being decried for its "kiddy" art style, Skyward Sword was the the response to Twilight Princess being too similar to Ocarina (and, in the context of the Wii version, not having fully exploited the motion controls), and Breath of the Wild was the response to Skyward Sword being decried for the issues I mentioned before. It also happened to the handhelds games to a lesser extent, with A Link Betwen Worlds also having an open-ended approach but also reducing enormously the touch controls of the two DS games. It's more of a case of overcorrection than anything else. Also, while I think the next game will bring back several elements of the old formula, Nintendo won't completely undo the elements of the new one, because they're a company that wants money and the last thing they'll want to do is to alienate the 22 million people who got into the series with BOTW just to please the 6 million people who kept the series alive between 1986 and 2016.

Like TC said, the last completely traditional game was Twilight Princess, and that was released 17 years ago. And the (late) appreciation the overall public had towards the game only intensified when the proposals Nintendo offered to freshen the series' formula didn't resonate with them.

135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300

The risk is that Bot W and Tot K made insane money for the series (with Bot W even giving Pokemon and Smash a run for their money for once). So in Nintendo's eyes, that must be what fans would like and they will focus on that generally. Should they try the previous formula and it sells comparably poorly, that might cause them to abandon that formula.

-Witty line-

Er, the central hub is the overworld, and Skyward Sword doesn't have one. That's kind of my point. Unless you mean the sky, which is practically empty and not contiguous with anything, not even Skyloft or the Thunderhead.

Wild that you point to Wind Waker as an example, since that famously has a gigantic borderless overworld. It's one of the most open, least segregated games in the series alongside Breath of the Wild and the original.

Aren't you splitting hairs? Every game as far back as Link's Awakening has at least two towns, and the games that don't still had scattered shops and hoboes selling shit in caves. Even if I'm forgetting something, having one location with one bazaar that sells everything you'll ever need and is the site of every sidequest in the game (except Fun Fun Island, I guess) is pretty decidedly outside the norm.

While I'm at it, I also don't see how having fewer shops is a convenience? If you're on Eldin Volcano and you're out of arrows, better haul your ass back up to the sky to shop at the one place that sells them. Even if you think it's easier that way, we still miss out on having towns for the nonhuman races. Imagine the underground city of the Mogma, or the Kikwi living in an Ewok village on that big non-Deku tree. Could've been cool.

Twilight Princess is a GameCube game with some motion controls awkwardly grafted on. It's not really comparable to a game that was built from the ground up to incorporate motion controls wherever possible. I'm starting to get the feeling you're just being contrarian.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

Yes my point is the sky is ultimately just a variation of the mostly empty overworked hubs the series has done since OOT and I pointed out the ocean because it too is a mostly empty traversal mechanic designed to allow you to access otherwise completely disconnected areas.

No I legitimately don’t think that putting all the shops together is this big shake up to the Zelda formula like you do.

Pointing out that Skyward sword wasn’t the first game to have motion controls isn’t being contrarian. It’s just pointing out the truth.

And besides I’m pretty sure when most people are talking about shaking up the Zelda formula it’s more about how it typically went “go through 3 dungeons to get doodads #1 followed by maybe one in between dungeon before going to the second set of dungeons to get doodads #2 don’t forget to use that unique item of each dungeon to kill that dungeon’s specific boss now kill the pig/pixi/demon and beat the game”

I feel like your the one that splitting hairs here my man.

After 10 year plus years I have the confidence to be here. Let's give it EVERYTHING we've got! It's...PUNISHMENT TIME

The word "otherwise" is doing an awful lot of legwork there, like yeah, the islands would be disconnected if only they weren't all a part of the same giant unsegregated map. There's no way you don't see the distinction. Even in Ocarina of Time you can go from Gerudo Valley to Link's house in Kokiri Forest (and visit most of the game's other locales on the way there!) without once setting foot on Hyrule Field. It's contiguous, see. Interconnected. Skyward Sword requires you to pass through the color-coded portal dimension to go from one of its four places to any other.

Lemme ask you this: if you removed every town in Ocarina of Time except Kakariko Village and replaced Hyrule Field with a circle of color-coded portals that lead directly to the dungeons (or to a themed mini-dungeon the approximate length and complexity of the Ice Cavern that then leads to a dungeon, as the case may be), would you call that a big change or a little one?

Because that's what Skyward Sword did. You can define away the difference if you really want to, but the game is one of the most contentious in the series, so it obviously changed the experience for enough people.

My brother in Christ, they literally had to mirror the whole game to make it work on the Wii with motion controls. It was a last-minute hatchet job. The Wii U remaster doesn't even support the Wii remote, unlike most other first-party games at the time. Skyward Sword was a new design paradigm with motion controls at the forefront; Twilight Princess was not.

The "doodad" thing is a story contrivance. They could "fix" that by simply giving Link one big set of equivalent doodads to find instead of a little "practice" set followed by another, more portentous set (Majora's Mask already kind of did that, actually). I'm guessing they relied on that trope as long as they did because it's a good way to illustrate Link's growth.

What people actually mean when they talk about "the formula" is the basic loop of going to a dungeon, finding an item and then using that item to open the way to the next dungeon, which Skyward Sword very famously does not do.

Also, building a dungeon around the use of a specific item and then testing your mastery of that item with a boss is Good Game Design, Actually.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

It... doesn't? I guess in the sense that the next dungeon is always locked behind story progress rather than just being an area you can't access without the previous dungeon's item, yeah, but that's also true of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess (and Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks...).

Edited by BOOXMOWO on Mar 29th 2024 at 6:04:37 AM

Um, Skyward does have dungeon items, though...

...okay, I may have goofed up there.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

Increasingly enforced linearity in the dungeon order is definitely a trend that built up over the series, peaked in Skyward Sword, and then was thrown out entirely in Breath of the Wild. That's probably what people are thinking of when they say the formula had to be shaken up after Skyward Sword.

There's some points that can be discussed like the how each game is structured exactly, but I don't understand why there are people complaining about Zelda games having things like environmental puzzles and various items used on different enemies and obstacles that you collect over the game. That's kind of the whole gameplay of the series. It's like complaining that Mario should mix things up from always being about jumping across platforms and dodging obstacles, or that Metroid should shake things up from always being about exploring non-linear winding dungeons hunting down upgrades and new items that let you explore more. Like that's what the game's about, if you didn't like the basic premise of older Zelda games why did you start playing them?

It's like people who talk about turn-based combat is inherently boring and only done because of tech limitations and act like everyone agrees with them, when no, there wasn't tech limitations creating turn-based combat, there are people who just unironically enjoy it and want to play games like that. If you don't like turn-based RPGs, then why the fuck are you playing them and bitching about them? I thinking FPS gameplay is some of the most boring shit there is, but I don't claim to be a shooter fan who's sick of how shooter games are doing things and assume everyone agrees with me that they should modernize by changing genres, I just don't play shooter games.

Complaints about turn-based games always struck me as odd, since [[Franchise/Pokemon one of the biggest video game series ever]] is turn based.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

Every single section of SS is formulaic.

Act 1/the search for Zelda goes: find a new tablet to unlock the area, explore area for a bit, get a new item, use the new item to find and unlock the dungeon.

Act 2/search for the Flames goes: get the song needed to unlock each silent realm, find and beat each silent realm, use the item acquired in the silent realms to enter and explore the new area to find the next dungeon.

Act 3/the Song of the Hero goes: explore each area with a different gimmick.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

When trying to link to an article that's a single word you have to put it in curly brackets like Namespace/{{this}}

And to be fair with Pokemon, a lot of people who play it don't really like the gameplay in any meaningful way. A lot of people partially play the games just because they can quickly get through the story just mashing A without having to interact particularly deeply with the game's systems, and they have no interest in playing any other RPGs. Pokemon gets a lot of slack and sales just because it is Pokemon.

I mean, that's where it gets tricky because it's vague enough that it could be any villain, like say Vaati who came to Hyrule BEFORE Ganondorf. Twice. And we see them operate separately in FSA.

And here's the thing, Ganondorf never really gets hateful towards Zelda or Link till his plans get foiled. His very first encounter with Link is dismissing him as a kid, and leaving him for dead, then using him as a pawn to get the triforce.

Which indicates to me that Ganondorf can't be Demise's incarnation of hate because he's not programmed to instantly want Link or Zelda dead from the get go. He only really gets pissed at them at the end after losing, and if we go by timeline, then that hatred peters out by Wind Waker.

Even in Twilight Princess, his attention is initially towards Midna before Link comes in and proves himself the more dangerous foe.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 29th 2024 at 9:35:37 PM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Dude, Ganondorf is Demise's hatred because he's the only one, besides Link and Zelda, who reincarnates. Ganondorf is even made to resemble Demise, trying to argue otherwise is basically ignoring canon.

Ganondorf doesn't always show his hatred the same way Link doesn't always know he's the Hero, but it doesn't change who either of them are. There's more facets to their personalities than just hatred and heroism.