The Legend Of Zelda - General Thread

What does hazards in combat have to do with making the dungeon any less linear feeling? And it's not like you really get anything worthwhile from killing enemies in Zelda, just maybe some rupees or arrows you don't really need and can be found in pots, it's not like they give you EXP or something else you need and can't get any other way. Making the combat more involved is just going to give you more reason to run past and ignore enemies when backtracking at best, or make the backtracking more tedious at worse. Part of what makes running from one section of the dungeon to another so easy in 2D games is that you can usually just sort of mindlessly slash at enemies that come near you as you run through old rooms.

edited 1st May '17 10:32:16 AM by KuroBaraHime

True that. It's more or less what happens after a Dark Souls player has already passed through an area and is no longer interested in fighting the monsters; they'll just speedrun the place. But that's partially due to some areas being unfriendly as hell to stay in, such as the Catacombs of Carthus or nearly anywhere in the Ringed City.

I feel like that dungeons could be less linear feeling if they did this:

1. Incorporate hazards into combat as "the puzzle" as opposed to "use item to solve room."
2. Put the key at the end of a hallway containing the dodging/puzzle mix.
3. After you grab the key, respawn the enemies or replace them with tougher enemies as you fight back out.
4. Put the lock corresponding to said key on a different end of the dungeon as opposed to "the next room."

Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.

Fuck that shit, that'd be annoying as hell. There's a good reason many players don't like Sen's Fortress.

Also, your example of "less linear" is literally just a hallway you go through twice and a small key whose locked door is elsewhere in the dungeon, something done all the time in Zelda.

edited 1st May '17 11:10:26 AM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!

Lately I've been wondering why linearity is even all that bad. If something is fun and interesting, what does it matter how open or closed it is?

This song needs more love.

I like Link's Awakening. Link's Awakening is my most favorite Zelda game. What's everyone else's most favorite Zelda games?

I agree!

edited 1st May '17 11:13:54 AM by Jaryl

Linearity can be bad when it's poorly disguised (see Final Fantasy XIII's "the game is a giant hallway" complaints) and/or leads to you getting railroaded so hard that you've never given the chance to sidetrack.

Otherwise there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

edited 1st May '17 11:27:00 AM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

I'm not getting how making the game more combat-oriented necessarily makes the dungeons more non-linear. Like I guess you're getting rid of any obstacles that require items to use, like hookshotting past a gap or shooting a switch, but that doesn't say anything about obstacles that don't require items, like that fire maze in the Fire Temple that take a minute or two to get through, and the new hazards you're adding to get in the way during combat could still make things slower to get through than most of the rooms in 2D dungeons. It should be noted that many rooms in the 2D games, pretty much all of them in the NES and Gameboy games in fact, are literally just the size of your screen, and you move across the screen pretty fast.

It sounds less like you have less of a problem with the overall linearity of the dungeon and more like you want stronger combat and platforming and less puzzles that require to stop and do something.

x3 Wind Waker. Link's Awakening is my favorite 2D Zelda, though.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!

I mean, that's oversimplifying it a little. People wouldn't get so worked up about linearity or non-linearity if that wasn't a factor that directly plays into how "fun and interesting" a game is. Linear and non-linear games provide different kinds of fun that appeal in different ways to different people - it's just a matter of taste. But as a rule of thumb, I'd say being "interesting" is more likely when the game offers a certain non-linearity, since being interesting, as far as I understand it, requires a game to provide an experience that I can learn something from because it's so new to me.

I mean, a movie can be interesting and that is a linear affair, but we're talking about a more active kind of thing. Breath of the Wild has been interesting to me because of how it forced me to adapt to a kind of game I wasn't familiar with, made me have to reconsider my resource hoarding habits, my stance regarding difficulty, and a lot of other things. The thing I find most interesting about, say, Final Fantasy games, is to take in the world, talk to all the NPCs, get a feel for the different fantastic places and creatures it shows me and such, all of which involves letting me wander around and do things at my own pace to shape an experience that I enjoy. Final Fantasy Mystic Quest is perfectly linear and literally just involves you moving from place to place and pressing buttons to make battles happen. The most linear game possible would be, like, a movie that constantly forces you to do Quick-Time events. ... Or a rhythm game, I guess? Or rail shooters, actually. Huh. So, that stuff apparently exists. It apparently can be fun in a way, but it'll feel unfulfilling to a lot of people because it doesn't really let you shape your own experience.

edited 1st May '17 12:18:17 PM by Fawriel

Well yeah, taste is obviously a part of it but too often, I see "it's linear" be a complaint with no real elaboration on why it's bad. To use an example, Telltale's games are often accused of putting the player on a set track regardless of their choices (choosing one option will cause this to happen when it's going to happen anyway shortly after, regardless of choice) and that I can understand. On the other hand, if someone were to criticize the dungeons of say, Persona 5 for being linear, I would wonder what they're talking about. They're linear yes, but also super fun.

Basically, I don't see why "linearity" by itself is any kind of complaint.

edited 1st May '17 12:35:43 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.

Well, when it comes to dungeons, I feel like Mark Brown did explain that pretty well. When the dungeon is too linear, it just feels like you're following a path, doing the things the game tells you to in order to basically unlock the next part of the story, which can feel like a chore in the worst cases. Nonlinearity can make it feel more like you are actually making decisions and being an active force in opening up the game world. The personal tastes dictate how important this factor is to different people.

In my view, if you're going to go from exploration-based to linear, you better get some damn good setpieces, obstacles, and puzzles to justify it. I actually wrote a comparison regarding Mario Galaxy and Skyward Sword and their relationship with linearity on Reddit.

And this isn't an impossible task either. Look at the jump from Mario 64 and Sunshine to the Galaxy duology. Absolutely fantastic setpieces such as being launched from planet to planet, gravity gimmicks, the Sinking Lava Spire, the Cyclone Stone; every little thing succeeds in engaging you. (Note that this is coming from someone who prefers 64 and Sunshine)

Now, with TP and SS, they... really don't justify their linearity. Both of their stories are terrible (particularly tragic in the latter case as it was supposed to be the origin story of the series), and neither have any good reason to feel so guided. Just use a hookshot to get to spot, or shoot switch with bow, or bomb obvious breakable wall; what is it about those things that they need to be in a linear environment again?

There are exceptions such as Temple of Time in TP or the whole of Lanayru Desert in SS, but, as the backlash to Sonic Adventure 2 has also stated: a game that has less than 50% of its content be good isn't worth it.

So yes, assuming all else held equal, going from open to linear is an inherent step backwards. But it is one that can be made up for.

Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.

Waxing, I'm sorry, but you referring to "every dungeon in MM" as the best in the series made my eye twitch. Woodfall and Stone Tower are good dungeons, but Snowhead and Great Bay are the two worst things in any Zelda game ever. At least any I've ever played, and I've played both Phantom Hourglass^note although I didn't finish it and Skyward Sword.

The best dungeons in the series are the ones that have the best atmosphere, because they're the most fun to get lost in and explore, i.e. The Forest Temple (from Ocarina), the Spirit Temple, and the Forbidden Woods. This is my opinion, which naturally means that it's a stone-cold fact.

Seriously, though, stop treating your terrible opinions as facts. They're not.

edited 3rd May '17 4:09:54 PM by ThriceCharming

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

I don't think Great Bay is quite as bad as most people make it out to be, though I understand why it's disliked.

Snowhead I have no idea what you're talking about, not necessarily the first one that comes to mind when I think of great dungeons in Zelda but I view it as respectable and interesting and not overly frustrating.

I'm pretty used to disagreeing with you about the game in general so this doesn't really surprise me.

It's the ice disc puzzle. It's too time-consuming and elaborate, and the punishment for messing it up (i.e. having to backtrack to the basement to reset it) is obnoxious.

Granted, I've only played the game two or three times, so I may be misremembering. On the other hand, I've only played the game two or three times precisely because I don't want to deal with the ice disc puzzle again.

It's possibly my least favorite puzzle in Zelda history, followed VERY closely by the spinning bridge to the Isle of Songs in Skyward Sword.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

So what kind of puzzles do you like, then? Ones where you shoot an obvious switch? Ones where you bomb an obvious rock? Ones where you pull yourself to an obvious hookshot target?

Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.

*mentally tunes out*

Song of the Sirens

You really need to learn to read the room, bro.

But yes, as a matter of fact, I do prefer those to mind-numbing time sinks like the ice disc puzzle. Especially if there's a time limit.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

I don't recall ever having that much of a problem with the disc puzzle? Even when I didn't know what I was doing exactly I don't recall having to reset it even once.

I'd argue that Stone Tower is the only truly great dungeon in MM. Woodfall is one of the better early game forest themed dungeons, but it doesn't really do much to stand out either. As for Snowhead and Great Bay- I can understand why people like them, but they share the same problem of 'everytime you make a mistake when interacting the dungeon's central gimmick, you're forced to do a bunch of backtracking'.

Not to say that either of them are bad- although Great Bay probably is my least favourite 3D dungeon- just that Stone Tower's the only one making the 'top ten dungeons' list.

edited 3rd May '17 5:09:51 PM by Gilphon

Woodfall has a nice atmosphere going for it at least.

But yeah I agree Stone Tower reigns supreme, I don't think most people debate that at least it's a memorable and interesting dungeon.

What's the point of a central gimmick puzzle if it doesn't waste your time when you make a mistake?

It would be bad design to let a puzzle like that damage you, so there has to be some punishment for messing it up.

Please help out our The History Of Video Games page.

The point is 'being an interesting, engaging and cool puzzle to solve'? Like, obviously? Being forced to do ten minutes of backtracking everytime you make a mistake is none of those things.

Like, most of the 2D games let you just reset a puzzle by walking in and out of the room.

Or, to give a more direct comparison, Stone Tower has a bunch of 'flip the dungeon' switches scattered throughout the dungeon; you don't have to backtrack to the one every time you want things to be upside-down. And when you want things to be in the other orientation and no switch is readily available, figuring out how to make that happen is part of the puzzle, not an excuse for tedious backtracking.