The Legend Of Zelda - General Thread

You might not have been looking in the right places. I saw a ton of scorn for it for years after its release even before Bot W was unveiled.

@Kuro: I have never said nor thought that Zelda should be "more like X game." In fact, Zelda's uniqueness among games (even though it's arguably Nintendo's "different for its own sake" complex developed circa the Wii era) is a strength even in the TP-SS decline of the series.

I and everyone else (hell, even fans who do like the TP-SS era) just wanted the series to improve on some level. And if the improvements are independently thought of, yet coincidentally similar to other games, so be it. Game mechanics can't be copyrighted after all.

Is Soulsborne considered a Monster Hunter ripoff (in Japan at least, since no one in the west cares for it) since it shares the same focus on stamina management and enemy reading?

Lastly, I admit I've been a Single-Issue Wonk in the recent past, and I'm doing my best to improve that aspect. But, sorry, I'm not letting go of airing my grievances when I have the chance (note when I have the chance, I won't bring it up out of nowhere like I used to). BOTW may begin Zelda's renaissance, but I've been too burned by the 11-year length of the series' decline and Sonic's own troubles with digging itself in a hole to fully trust Aonuma and Fujibayashi just yet.

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Just to be clear, I wrote my post in general way because I've felt this way somewhat over the discussion of other game besides Zelda, and I didn't want to seem like I was picking a fight with anyone.

But I'll say specifically to Waxing Name, that the way you keep bringing it up and calling the games a dark age or grey age is, I feel, causing people who liked those games to double down on their opinions. And once that's happening, then as I said, the conversation isn't going to go anywhere, and it's just going to frustrate people. All I can think to suggest is that maybe you should just talk positively about the games you liked without directly comparing them to TP and SS for a while, but you're free to do what you want. I don't really have anything more to say about this.

This is the part I have a problem with. You are lumping all players into the group that shares your opinion, and treating anyone who doesn't as a statistical outlier whose data can be safely discarded.

To be fair, "All players want to see a game franchise they like improve" that I'm reasonably sure is true. At the very least, I have no idea why anyone would want to see the series get worse. For example, I like basically every main Zelda game and I still want to see the series improve.

EDIT: Oh, wait, that's not what your problem is with. Nevermind.

edited 27th Apr '17 11:45:30 PM by Zelenal

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It's good that you're trying to improve! I think in part, the current kerfuffle is probably caused by expectations: Even if you've improved over time, the people who've grown to expect the wonking from you will see your digs at those games and go "ugh, with this shit again". And in the same way, it's likely that you've grown to expect things to escalate and might overreact even when people aren't really "losing their minds" so much as just being a little annoyed. That stuff happens.

But yeah, in general I think it's just not good to dwell on negativity, for one's own sake just as well as for the sake of the atmosphere within the thread. It's obviously best to be able to let frustration go because dwelling on it will only make you permanently stressed-out. And when people see a constant source of negativity in a conversation, it stresses them out as well. It's good to be able to talk critically about media, but at some point everything constructive has been said, and then people just want to talk about things they enjoy in order to pass the time, so even offhanded negativity can feel like it's ruining a pleasant atmosphere - particularly in tandem with the expectations I talked about before.

(For the record, I mostly agree with you about the "gray age" or whatever it was called - all those games felt like they were trying to recapture something but didn't quite get there, whereas Breath of the Wild is the first title in a while that feels truly timeless and polished since Majora's Mask. But I generally strive to be a positive person and be critical but still try to see the good in most things, so I'm not too broken up about those games and I'm just happy to see that BotW seems like a return to game design mastery.)

edited 28th Apr '17 2:23:52 AM by Fawriel

what if Zelda had a Gun

I'm surprised at some of the hate that Twilight Princess gets. Some Zelda fans act like the game is the Zelda equivalent to Sonic 06. And yes I know that the Zelda fandom is not one big hive mind

One thing that I like about Twilight Princess is the story. It felt like the first Zelda game that tried to do more than the whole "Good vs Evil" thing. Twilight Princess had Midna who at the beginning of the game seems like she could be evil but is really good. Zant is also an underrated character. Some people hate the fact that he seems to go crazy. But the thing is that Zant was always crazy which is why he didn't become ruler of the Twili

Yeah, Zant didn't just go crazy, he was always crazy. He only seemed menacing because he had Ganondorf whispering in his ear. Once Ganondorf was done with him, his true colors were revealed. I quite liked it.

I also have no problem with Ganondorf. He's introduced about halfway through the game and I can't readily think of a Zelda game that involved both the Master Sword and the Triforce that doesn't also involve Ganon in some capacity. That and it helps that the boss fights against him are pretty great, mostly.

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> what if Zelda had a Gun

she could have a musket or canon

New theme music also a box

Nah, she's already doing well enough with a flintlock◊ :v

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

That doesn't really address the criticisms of why people disliked the twist or the handling of Zant's character.

I don't really like the story in TP at all because I just find it extremely underwhelming. None of the scenes that are supposed to inspire pathos really do much for me, some of them are just outright silly (like the lake hylia scene about the interlopers which feels like looking at a bad creepypasta), i don't really find any of the characters besides midna to be all that interesting, and while ganondorf didn't exactly come out of nowhere I don't feel the game really benefitted that much from him being there. It was supposed to be a game about Midna and Zant and in most ways is, but the regular zelda elements had to be there and they just don't work in unison.

edited 28th Apr '17 8:53:50 AM by Draghinazzo

So, why is that people can respond to the current "TP was/wasn't that great" topic with negativity while I can't? Because believe me, the TP-SS era is very controversial, even though very few people (if not just I) classify it as one gray age, dark age, not-as-good age, or some other classification. I'm trying to participate in discussions regarding those two games the way I want to AND I adjusted what I say and my "out of nowhere" habits to make it tolerable.

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The issue is mostly that I think people have gotten a bit tired of the subject. We've had more or less the same 2-3 kinds of discussions about it conducted in mostly the same way, and nobody really budged on their positions so it just ended up being frustrating for people who didn't care to have the issue forced again instead of just coming up more naturally. I mean, it's natural for certain topics to come up every now and again and it's not necessarily bad since there can be newer people to bring in new perspectives or people might have changed their minds since then, but it's been like 80% of what this thread has been about for the last few months.

You seem to be under the impression that maybe people aren't understanding your points and maybe if you could show them some sort of other example or argument they'd finally "get it", but that's simply not the case. You've made your arguments pretty clearly multiple times and people just don't agree with either multiple parts of just the entirety of your arguments and they've told you so, multiple times. Bringing it up again with maybe another example or two isn't going to be very persuasive if they already disagreed on a fundamental level. If people are more testy over you bringing up the subject in particular it might just be because they don't really enjoy the way you discuss these things.

I know that it can be frustrating to have a minority opinion but you have to have a certain self-awareness about how pushing a certain subject over and over again just gets old. I have largely the same opinion about TP and SS being underwhelming but I try not to bring that up too much or get up in arms about it since it would just grate on people's nerves.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:02:15 PM by Draghinazzo

"she could use a musket"

"she"

i said zelda not the princess lady he resuces.

Gannon-Banned!

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In all seriouness I feel like a musket could be an interesting weapon. We've never really had any sort of gun in the series before and I don't think it would be too out of place.

So what do you think of the Bomb cannon in WW and ST?

If you just mean handheld guns, there is, no joke, a rifle◊ in OoT as a background element.

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Plus there's Auru's bazooka in Twilight Princess, and Tetra's flintlock from Hyrule Warriors that I just linked to.

It's never been at the forefront, but firearms aren't a completely foreign concept to the series.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

There's only really one problem with introducing guns, and that's that it doesn't fit with Aonuma's principle of "every item needs its own unique function." It's why we never had the Fire Rod and Ice Rod until BOTW, because the Bow is already the "designated projectile weapon."

Likewise, a gun would make the bow redundant. Unless of course, Ranged Weapons become a class including things like Crossbows and Guns and they break like bows.

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...Eh? The Fire Rod was in about four games before BOTW, and the Ice Rod was in two.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:27:04 PM by whizzerd

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

Sorry, I meant in 3D.

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Oh you mean on the boat? That was a pretty neat feature, naval warfare in wind waker wasn't exactly super developed (nor do I think it needed to be), but it felt like a very natural addition since whenever people think of war at sea they think of cannonfire.

Ah, gotcha.

I dunno, the series isn't a stranger to multiple projectile weapons in one game. OOT had both the Slingshot and Boomerang for Young Link, and ST had the Slingshot and Bow. The latter I think did better in not making the slingshot immediately redundant by changing the Bow to a sniper weapon that's less suitable for stunning enemies, so I think they could do something with both bows and guns.

Like, guns are good for very long range and have a reliably precise and piercing shot. Meanwhile, bows have a shorter trajectory, and can't pierce, but can be infused with fire/ice magic for puzzles/enemies that require those. Or maybe bows deal elemental damage while guns are more about stunning/blinding enemies.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

I'm all for a musket item, or a big ole blunderbuss like Kaptain K. Rool's. Something that lets you shoot bombs long distances (indeed, like the cannon from Wind Waker, except you can take it anywhere). I realize bomb arrows already do that, but I don't like bomb arrows.

As for Wind Waker itself, I really can't think of a single bad thing to say about it, other than "It's too short" and "It's not as good as Ocarina of Time." And the HD remake is even better.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?