Dragon Age

I did like the Envy demon, though. The series has a tendency to portray demons as evil, and their purpose secondary (or as a tool); but Envy was driven by it just like Cole is by compassion. Spirits/demons aren't all the same (even among those that share a purpose), of course, but the type of demon seems just barely considered when written, as opposed to spirits.

edited 31st Oct '16 1:36:30 AM by SilentColossus

Mages. Redcliffe + time magic + Dorian + helping the oppressed = win. Though I was very disappointed that the Inquisition didn't put Fiona on trial afterwards.

edited 31st Oct '16 6:11:14 AM by Tarlonniel

There also seems to be something missing from the Templar plot. For the mages, you know there is a problem before you actually go to Redcliff castle. Cults and time magic, with Fiona and her mages practically begging you for help. You meet Dorian, while you have no prior contact with Cole.

A quest that involves you finding out the Templars have been importing Red Lyrium, which you already know the dangers of, before going to meet the Templars might have worked.

edited 31st Oct '16 6:23:20 AM by SilentColossus

I agree. If you take up Fiona's offer to visit them in Redcliffe, then I think the reason to get involved there is much stronger. If we knew that the Templars were importing red lyrium - we wouldn't necessarily need to know why - then that would give us a more concrete reason to investigate further (alternatively, it might warn some people off the same way that the mages bargaining with Tevinter did with Tobias, which would be good too - a reason to side with them, a reason not to).

Eh, being desperate doesn't win them any points from me, given that their desperation is self-inflicted. They wanted a war, they got one, and then they sold their souls to Tevinter because they were losing and would sooner become part of the Blood Magic and Demon Empire than just go back to the f*cking Circle.

The Circle has its problems but it's a damned sight better than the horror show that is the Imperium. The Mages were like, "Ultimate slave empire ruled by pure evil or going back to trying to fix the Circle from within? Mmm, tough choice. I think I want to give the worst people on the entire planet a foothold in Ferelden and help advance their terrible agenda, that seems like a good choice. Where do I sign up for my demon?"

Once again demonstrating why the Circle needs to be a thing. I'll have more sympathy for mages when they stop trying their damnedest to be classified as Always Chaotic Evil in every game. My heart wants to bleed for them but it's too busy bleeding for the victims they constantly leave in their wake.

edited 31st Oct '16 10:03:26 AM by TobiasDrake

I usually go with the Templars in this argument but to be honest if it was a choice between going to Tevinter or going back to the Circles I'd pick Tevinter too. Being a clerk is better than being a prisoner.

When I got to judge Alexius, l just slammed his ass into my research apparatus. Killin' him was just too easy.

I hope that that doesn't come back and bite me in the bum later on, though.

But that's not what happened. If you talk to the mages in Redcliff, literally one you encounter approves of the decision. The others encountered do not, and even Fiona knows she made a terrible decision. It was a combination of Venetori agents making the idea seem more popular, and Alexius using time travel until it worked.

The Circles having "problems" seems to include killing all the mages during Annulments - one example includes the Dairsmuid Circle for following Rivani seer tradition (not blood magic) and hanging out with their families. Also, the human mage backstory includes you almost being killed despite the Ostwick Circle remaining neutral. You likewise see three mages in Redcliff who do not approve of the Rebellion, yet are only there because they could be killed otherwise.

edited 31st Oct '16 10:26:56 AM by SilentColossus

There is no fixing the Circle's from within when you have people like Meredith(If not worse) in charge and abusing the Rite of Tranquility, as well as keeping the fact that it can be reversed a secret for so long.

Agreed, "fixing the Circle from within" is decidedly not an option by this point, and I'm rather suspicious of the idea that it ever was. Maybe in some places, but not in Kirkwall. Not in White Spire.

edited 31st Oct '16 10:38:59 AM by KarkatTheDalek

To be fair, not even the Templars knew about reversing Tranquility. Only the leaders of the Seekers did.

And those guys were the Templar IAB, so what does that tell you?

Kirkwall's problem was twofold. Part of it was the fact that Templars were using the Mages' corruption as a scapegoat for abhorrent practices up to and including sexual assault of Circle members.

The other part was the fact that the Circle was so heavily infested with maleficars, blood mages, and Abominations that you couldn't turn around without seeing a psychotic mage slaughtering someone - while using the Templars' transgressions as an excuse.

So basically Kirkwall had Templars are going, "I had to rape that Mage because blood magic" and Mages going "I had to eat those seven babies and use their corpses in a ritual to summon Elzargand the Abysmal into my body because Templars raped a Mage." Definitely not a place where any kind of progress could be started.

Regarding reversing Tranquility: I'm on the fence about whether that should be public knowledge. My main concern is that knowing there's a way to reverse it will lead to it being further abused. "Sarah was caught stealing! A week of being Tranquil should teach her."

As it is, Tranquility is the Nuclear Option for when nothing else will suffice. I fear what would happen within the Circle if it became a mundane punishment.

edited 31st Oct '16 11:02:16 AM by TobiasDrake

It's not even clear whether reversing Tranquility is even desirable. Mages who are cured of Tranquility go berserk and can't control themselves at all.

It's not even supposed to be a punishment. Tranquility started out as being solely the dominion of the Seekers, and then on weaker mages after it was discovered it made magic impossible. Then it became a punishment. Which it still isn't supposed to be, by Chantry law.

Are there even any mages aside from Pharamond who's been cured if Tranquility? And he makes a terrible example, seeing as he was touched by a demon instead of a spirit of Faith. Him being a mage may or may not have any correlation to him becoming emotionally unstable in Asunder.

Yes, but we don't know their names. The Seekers originally intended to recruit mages, but then it turned out the process sent them crazy.

I went with mages on my first run because, well, I was one, but yeah, it'd be easier to ask for freedom if one's fellow mages were not constantly demonstrating how dangerous and crazy they are. The Chantry gets blown up, the Tower of Calenhad looked like the Zerg had infested it, and then there's the rebel mages inviting Tevinter in through the back door to sell themselves into slavery... That last one could be considered treason, and the rest just proves the Templars' point for them, no matter how desperate the mages are. Not that they don't have reason to be desperate, but if they do want to be more autonomous, the things they do would get a country slapped with sanctions in heartbeat.

That being said, the Circle is for life, and life without parole is pretty harsh for something you didn't have a choice about. Templars amounting to jailors leaves itself wide open to abuse, and resentment on both sides, so that kind of dynamic was always going to lead to bad blood. A little more carrot and a little less stick might have gone a long way to improving that relationship. But too late now.

The way the Rites, both of Tranquility and Annulment, get waved around whenever the mages get uppity seems to point to a real attitude problem among the Templars. They say the Circle is there for the mages' own protection as much as anyone else's, but that doesn't translate into practice or personal belief.

edited 31st Oct '16 1:16:23 PM by Unsung

A major problem with the Circle is one of attitude - on both sides of the fence. Both Mages and Templars approach the thing like it's meant to be a prison. Like a punishment for being born with magic. This leads to a victim complex among the mages^Hey! "How DARE they imprison me for the crime of existing?!" as well as an entitlement bias among the Templars^Listen! "Ha! Serves 'em right for being mages. That's what we're doing, right? Sticking it to them for being mages? Yeah. I can do whatever I want, 'cause they're stupid mages.".

Part of this, in turn, comes from a conflict between how mages and non-mages view magic. Mages see it as this cool thing they can do that they're being oppressed for while non-mages just see the inherent dangers to both the mage and others by forces beyond their control. It is a cool ability, but it also carries extreme risks. Ultimately, mages and non-mages should be aligned in their desire for mages not to be possessed by demons.

Consequentially, the Circle needs a rebranding to emphasize its primary function: a safe space where mages can learn how to contain the dangers inherent to their abilities. A key element of creating this safe space, however, is putting mages into positions of authority alongside the Templars. Until mages are acknowledged with positions within the pecking order that are equal in prominence to non-mages, it will never stop feeling to mages like a prison imposed on mages by "others", nor to Templars like a holding pen for "others".

edited 31st Oct '16 12:11:21 PM by TobiasDrake

I like that under a softened Divine Leliana that the Circles rebuild as the safe place to learn magic and how to avoid Possesion.

edited 31st Oct '16 12:19:14 PM by GethKnight

Every Divine has an ending with the Circle of Magi back and the College of Enchanters around.

Well, sort of. The mages form a College of Enchanters no matter who's Divine; it's just a question of what becomes of it and the Circle that's disputed. Leliana formally disbands the Circle and puts complete authority over mages into the College. Vivienne destroys the College and enslaves everyone to rejoin the Circle exactly as it used to be. Cassandra tries to have her cake and eat it by supporting both organizations, with conflicts beginning to brew between Circle and College.

Personally, I like Divine Cassandra best. She's the moderate option. I feel that Leliana's solution does little to address the risks that magic poses to mages and those around them, while Vivienne's solution isn't one at all. "Everything goes back to the way it was," is the stupidest possible resolution to the Mage Rebellion.

So I want the Circle to be a thing, but I also want it reformed, and that's Cassandra.

edited 31st Oct '16 12:31:17 PM by TobiasDrake

Oh, right.

Presumably there are conflicts brewing under the other Divines as well, just not as openly, because the Iron Lady and the Nightingale ain't nothin' to fuck with. But conflicts aren't a bad thing unto themselves— it's how they get resolved, whether through dialogue or at swordpoint, that's the important thing.

Cassandra's probably the surest bet long-term, though if Leliana's way could succeed without creating massive backlash, I'm partial to it. The system does need reform badly, and incremental change has a habit of backsliding every time there's a regime change, so it just ping-pongs and nothing actually gets done.

The Chantry is surprisingly reasonable and democratic for a church in a dark fantasy game.

edited 31st Oct '16 2:06:23 PM by Unsung

Hence why I mentioned a softened Leliana. Hardened and she just kills her opponents. Or has people do it for her.