Name discussion: Gainax Ending

edit: Realized what I was quoting had already been covered. Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Titles makes this very clear thanks to Fast Eddie's recent additions.

As was said before, a strong number of inbound links is a good sign that a trope is healthy... it is bringing us traffic from the outside, and thus is in some way resonating with the public. This also has 634 related links, which is a fairly nice number... meaning that it has gained good traction within the minds of editors.

When evidence indicates a trope is healthy, those in favor of rename must present evidence of their own to the contrary. Prove it is broken before we try to fix it.

Just as a note, any page with more than 1000 inbound links is in the top 2% of all trope pages in the entire wiki as far as inbound numbers go (reference this thread). With 7000, that figure is bound to be much higher. We can't just make a drastic change like renaming on a whim.

edited 4th Sep '10 8:36:48 PM by Meeble

I think it does resonate with the public, and for reasons different, and maybe even more accurately, than anime fans: while we might think "Gainax ending = Eva = cheap nonsensical ending done because the budget got blown", I think the public in general only takes it as far as "Gainax is anime, anime is crazy, Gainax Ending = an ending like that crazy ending I've heard Eva has". It might have been an obscure name way back when it was first made, but TV Tropes itself has since helped define and popularize the term into something even people who've never been here recognize (I've even heard it used in real-life). I think changing it would only lead to confusion, or, ironically, the impression that TV Tropes itself is out of touch for not using the "right" name.

(But on another note, wow, that is one convoluted description...)

edited 4th Sep '10 8:40:15 PM by BritBllt

I think the public in general only takes it as far as "Gainax is anime, anime is crazy, Gainax Ending = an ending like that crazy ending I've heard Eva has"

I think the public in general goes "Gainax is... what the heck is a Gainax?"

The test that would prove to me the name's OK would be usage outside anime-centric fandom. Like if a non-trivial number of people used the term Gainax Ending in reference to "mainstream" examples like (to take a few from the page) The Sopranos or Arrested Development .

(Edit: Ninja'd by Meeble, who says it better.)

edited 4th Sep '10 9:32:19 PM by BritBllt

^^ The point is, though, that the inbound links exist as proof that the title is okay for our purposes. More than okay, being in that it is in the upper tier of linked articles across the entire wiki. Proof needs to be offered that it is not okay. Simply stating that it is too fandom specific does not count as proof that the trope is broken.

edited 5th Sep '10 12:02:59 AM by Meeble

^^^Ah, yes. I haven't thought on it. It is probably hard to prove either way but this might, indeed, be a problem.

edited 4th Sep '10 9:42:46 PM by Heatth

Also from Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Titles:

If the title is a term already in use in the world, it is working. 'In the world', by the way, also means 'in a specific fandom.'

So if it turns out that the term is widely used but only in anime fandom, that's not a condition where the name should change.

Err, guys, why not just try splitting it into Anime/Manga and non-Anime/Manga versions? Fast Eddie said that's just fine if the name is opaque to any outside the Fan Dumb.

^ I think you're referring to something other than splitting. Eddie is working on a way that two different names could share an example list... though I'm not sure if that's all been worked out at this time.

Until it gets implemented with Yandere and we see how well it works, I don't think that's an option for other pages.

Straight-up splitting is an even more drastic change than Trope Renaming.

edit: And I don't appreciate your use of Fan Dumb in this context. I think that valid arguments not to rename have been put forth.

edited 5th Sep '10 12:38:08 AM by Meeble

Why not just make a redirect to Bizarre Ending or something if you people hate it that so very much.

"Err, guys, why not just try splitting it into Anime/Manga and non-Anime/Manga versions? Fast Eddie said that's just fine if the name is opaque to any outside the Fan Dumb."

Fandom is the term you should be using.

Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person.

For reference, I've heard some who managed to confuse Gainax Ending and Gainaxing, but that's just a small subset of people who were introduced to the site by me.

-shrug- Not that good of an argument, however. The inbound links cement that it's too prolific to rename, unless you wanted to keep it around as a redirect. Incidentally, do we have a list of the "most inbound links" pages?

edited 5th Sep '10 8:22:36 AM by AllanAokage

"I guees this proves Autarch is just proposing the rename beause he is a closet Fan Hater of anime in general."

Critical Research Failure, since I made this thread and suggested a rename (even if not strongly). And basing his motives on just splitting is bullshit, since a hater would want CUTTING the page, not splitting it.

The inbound links cement that it's too prolific to rename, unless you wanted to keep it around as a redirect.

I considered it a given that, if the trope was renamed, Gainax Ending would remain a redirect for whatever the new name is. Isn't that the usual practice when renaming?

That is usually the case.

The issue of redirects works both ways though, and it is generally considered to be a much better option to add clear redirects and keep the original name than to rename a well-performing trope.

Well let's check the wicks for misuse. Remember, merely mentioning a show made by Gainax is a misuse if it does not have this ending.

I will work on this. Will update this post with my results, unless more discussion follows between now and then.

Edit: Okay, I used a random number generator to pull 20 examples from the list of Wicks. PLEASE NOTE THERE ARE UNMARKED SPOILERS AHEAD.

Also note that some pages had the explanation on either the work page or the Gainax Ending page, but not both. In those cases I pulled the text from whichever had the most information. In cases where it was not clarified in either place, I marked those as "unclear".

• Genji Monogatari 1987: the ending doesn't make any sense for most of the audience because is a typical zen philosofical ending: after a revealing dream about his personal fears Your Highness contemplates how empty is the meaning of life and dances with his fan. I'm not kidding.

Verdict: Pass

• Hedwig And The Angry Inch: The last fifteen minutes or so of the movie have no dialogue, only music. The directors' commentary says that it is supposed to represent a concert and give a deeper look into Hedwig as a person. It also leaves the final scenes open for interpretation. They could be a musical number representing actual events or, if Hedwig is dead, it could be her dreams flashing before her eyes.

Verdict: Pass

• Ecco The Dolphin: The other interpretation of the Tides of Time ending. It is implied the Vortex Queen, upon arriving in prehistory, got stomped by the local wildlife (goddamned trilobites!), and was unable to dominate Earth's ecosystem, instead integrating into it and evolving into stuff we already had. Not weird enough? According to a Word of God interview — god only knows how reliable the source, but it sure sounds cool and it's not like we're going to see another game — Ecco knew this would happen and didn't even bother using the time machine to chase the Queen at all! He used it to go to the time of the Atlanteans, for "specific reasons reserved for the 3rd game."

Verdict: Uncertain. I don't know enough about these games to tell if this is a true Gainax ending or not.

• MGS 2 Ending: (Meeble Note - The ending for this game is so convoluted it actually has its own page, so I won't quote it all here. Check out the page for more info if needed.)

Verdict: Pass.

• Gadget Past As Future: Gainax Ending: The game ends with you flying the Ark into this giant mechanical structure topped with a glass dome. Inside is what looks like a giant sensorama. Slowslop, who previously was having you investigate the scientists but now seems to be working with them, tells you to give him your suitcase; then the giant sensorama activates, there's a hallucination and Slowslop dissappears. Then you come to and find the machine destroyed, you go through some doors and end up back in the hotel room you began the game in; albeit with the aforementioned swampland outside the window. There's another regular-sized sensorama which you use and see what Orlovsky planned for the empire, then the boy appears again, disappears, then you see some swirling lights outside the window; you fly out of it over the swamplands; a face rises out of a pool of water, and then the game ends. Not kidding.

Verdict: Pass.

• David Gemmell: Hero in the Shadows. After a straightforward ending in which the invading demonic hordes are pushed back, the epilogue engages in some pretty strong Mind Screw: Waylander, who has only hours left to live, is sent into an alternate universe, where he manages to prevent the rape and murder of his wife - making it not only an alternate universe, but the past as well, or something like that - heck if I know. He then dies, after which the Waylander from that dimension comes home to his wife. The End.

Verdict: I'm leaning towards misuse on this one. The epilogue sounds pretty straightforward to me.

• Being There: Chance is taking a stroll by himself after losing interest in Ben's funeral, and winds up walking out into the middle of a lake, actually walking on water. And, just so there's no confusion, when he realizes where he is, he fully submerges his umbrella before accepting the situation and continuing his stroll.

Verdict: Pass.

• Xamd Lost Memories: An Ancient Conspiracy of soul-eating albino children. A stillborn Death Seeker kaiju. Only a mass-sacrifice Spirit Bomb can stop the Big Bad, except not. The main character goes to a Journey To The Center Of The Mind and defeats the Big Bad by giving him his name... Or was it the laser? Instrumentality! The main character dies, and gets better nine years later for no reason! ...Oh, and he has inexplicably aged in the meantime.

Verdict: Pass.

• Neon Genesis Evangelion: After 24 episodes of mecha action and conspiracy plotting, the show ends with a look into Shinji's psyche, where he ultimately finds peace of mind. Some fans consider End Of Evangelion (the alledgedly planned ending that is also concurrent with the TV show's last episodes) to be this, but ultimately it provides a more of a conclusion than the TV series.

Verdict: Pass.

• Casino Royale: The 1967 version of Casino Royale, starring David Niven and Peter Sellers. Due to the feud between Sellers and Orson Welles, Sellers dropped out of the picture midway through filming. Because of this, the part of Peter Sellers, in the final scenes of the movie, is played by... none other than a cardboard cutout of Peter Sellers. In later versions, this cardboard cutout is replaced by previously shot footage of Sellers, dressed in Highland garb.

Verdict: Pass.

• The Fountain: (Meeble's Note: While this page does not list any detail for the gainax ending trope, having seen the movie myself I can vouch for its extremely convoluted and ambiguous ending. I will add more detail to this example when I can.)

Verdict: Pass.

• Darker Than Black: (Meeble's Note: Again this page does not give much information, however among the fandom the second season's ending is widely compared to the Neon Genesis Evangelion "Congratulations" scene, after which an alternate reality is created out of nowhere.)

Verdict: Pass.

• Local Hero: Marina may be a mermaid, Ben may be descended from the original owners of the oil company that wants to build over his beach, and the last shots of the film are a transition from the busy energy of Houston to a shot of the phone in the small town's only phone booth ringing forlornly.

Verdict: Pass.

• Kampfer: Episode 12, which is about the main four swapping bodies with their dolls, ends with the dolls in their owners' bodies flying away on Santa's sled. Then the episode (and perhaps the entire series) turns out to be a story told by female Natsuru to her child. And male Natsuru is married to female Natsuru. After that, the final scene is Sakura on Santa's sled throwing Entrails Animals to the children, four of them being the still bodyswapped main cast. What.

Verdict: Pass.

• The Prisoner: After footsying around with metaphor and allegory for the entire series, the Grand Finale goes completely allegorical... so much so that there's actually a fairly good case for calling this trope the Fall Out Ending or the Prisoner Ending instead.

Verdict: Pass.

• Once Upon A Time In America: What the hell does that garbage truck mean? James Woods has been dogged by questions ever since about whether he died in the end, something even he doesn't know.

Verdict: Pass.

• Knights Of The Old Republic: Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic II had this for Light Side. You beat Kreia, she talks to you for a bit, explaining why she liked you, and explaining the fates of some of your comrades. Then, she dies, your ship picks you up, falls into a chasm to its apparent destruction, then flies away from the exploding planet unscathed. AND NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS. No denouement, no "what's next?", just hop on the ship GOOD NIGHT, EVERYBODY, leaving everyone wondering "Okay, is there ANY backstory for Sion or Nihilus? How did the remote beat G0-T0? And why was HK apparently completely extraneous?" Dark side wasn't any better, in fact it was worse. Your ship falls into a chasm before you even reach the academy for no apparent reason. Then, you beat Traya and become leader of the Sith Academy. That's it, no mention of what happened to the rest of your party, except for the remote, which G0-T0 presumably destroyed. Just you and the academy. A Winner Is You indeed.

Verdict: Pass.

• Yami To Boushi To Hon No Tabibito: It's actually three endings at once, none of which fit together. In one part, Hatsumi leaves a message, in the next, the message is entirely erased. Many fans nowadays seem to think the ending is supposed to be a Pick-and-Choose-your-ending thing.

Verdict: Pass.

• Alan Wake: Arguably. It's deliberately ambiguous and open-ended.

Verdict: Uncertain. Not enough information.

• Last Blade: He, uh notices that gravity doesn't suddenly affect him anymore and spends the rest of the credits swimming through the skies until he is knocked out by the THE END sign. This is even turned into a mini-game in the portable version!

Verdict: Pass.

edited 5th Sep '10 2:39:22 PM by Meeble

So out of 20 examples, 17 appear to be correct usage according to my understanding of the trope. 1 example was misuse, and 2 examples were unclear.

Depending on how the unclear examples fall, that would indicate between 5% and 15% misuse, which is well within acceptable limits. While the wicks could use a thorough cleaning to clarify them, I don't think this one really needs a rename.

Well let's look through other samples and see.

7000 inbounds indicates an astonishingly healthy title. A very good number of inbound is 400.

Have a look at this. the numbers on the bottom are the inbounds, The axis on the left is the number of articles that have that number of inbounds. Notice how everything above about 400 is very, very rare.

edited 5th Sep '10 2:56:47 PM by FastEddie

Bumping this because I was about to make one of my own, and this is technically still active. The name is fine. Even if Fast Eddie hadn't decreed it so, it's certainly used enough.

However, the description needs serious work. It starts out by talking about what Studio Gainax is known for, and then presents multiple definitions for the trope. Let's be honest: regardless of what the trope was supposed to be (and I'm honestly not sure), what it's used for is "ending that doesn't make any sense, possibly as a result of budget difficulties". That's certainly a valid trope, but it needs to be substantially rewritten.

^ I agree. It appears we're stuck with the horrible name forever due to the Grandfather Clause, but we could at least give it a description that's not completely impenetrable to the uninitiated.

Yeah, I agree it needs to be rewritten. I'm a fan of Neon Genesis Evangelion, and I added an example, but it's been months and I'm still not 100% sure I actually understand the trope completely.

I'd like to make the comment as someone who first came to TV Tropes before ever seeing Evangelion or knowing anything about Gainax. I did not think Gainax Ending was a clear name.

However, I did make a guess that went sort of like this:

"Gainax? That's a weird name. Why does it make me think of oscillating objects? An oscillating ending? I bet it's something about an ending being really weird and confusing, so it messes with your mind."

I clicked on the link, and discovered my guess wasn't that far off.

It also eventually led to me watching Evangelion, and yes... Gainax is... Gainax.