Ambiguous Name: Aint Too Proud To Beg

Didn't know about that trope, but since it has a four-digit wick count, that makes me inclined to believe it's distinct enough from Ain't Too Proud to Beg to keep them separate (but if I'm wrong about that, we could probably give Villains Want Mercy its own thread later on). Maybe we could rename Ain't Too Proud to Beg to account for the need for a hero to be the one begging, though I can't think of any suggestions right now.

Edit: Pagetopper. I don't see the need for quoteblocks this time since the previous post was shorter than most posts I reply to in pagetoppers.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 21st 2024 at 10:21:41 AM

villians begs for mercy is specific to, well, mercy. in fact that's part of the issue here— a lot of the examples are of begging for things other than mercy, and it's unclear if that's misuse.

so if this trope covers heroes only, then there's a gap covering villians begging for something else. it would be weird to have tropes that cover heros begging for mercy, heroes begging for other things, and villians begging for mercy, but no trope for villians begging for other things

"villians begging for mercy" could be a reasonable sub-trope of a trope about not being to proud to beg in general

Taking on that, can we not just rework this to be a Super-Trope of undignified begging in general? Moral alignment and character intent need not apply, it's just the general act.

Is there a heroes begging for mercy trope? If this isn't that?

probably not one besides this, since anyone who wanted to make one would have been directed to this existing trope

Edited by Tremmor19 on Jan 21st 2024 at 3:35:07 PM

Ah. Okay, I misread your earlier post then, you were saying this trope covered three things but I misunderstood it as a trope having existed for each unique scenario.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 21st 2024 at 3:38:04 PM

We can come up with a Missing Supertrope page and give it the current name, while moving the heroic examples to a new name.

Thinking about it, I am surprised that there isn't a trope for begging in general or being too proud to beg/receive help. It is quite common in historical dramas for a poor character to refuse charity, let alone ask for it.

As far as heroes begging for their own life, of the 7 "correct" examples in the OP's wick check, only one involves the hero "begging" for his own life. Since the hero is Picard giving a speech, it doesn't really seem like begging (just admitting he needs help).

At this point I don't mind expanding to a supertrope and doing cleanup, perhaps making subtropes in the TLP though that should be secondary.

Seconding (or, I guess fourth'ing at this point haha) for reworking to a Super-Trope.

I like the supertrope idea, but how would that be handled in terms of sub-tropes exactly? Would be NOPE/def-only or just turned into more of a discussed/parodied concept?

I think it depends on which subtropes are actually viable/tropeworthy.

I'd be fine with that. Just to clarify, when you refer to cleanup, do you mean doing it through this thread, or through Short-Term Projects?

I'd prefer to continue to allow examples so examples that don't fit subtropes (especially ones we don't already have pages for) have somewhere to go, so no to making it definition-only. Adding it to No On-Page Examples might be a good idea due to how broad it would be, though.

That would be for TLP to sort out, since that's where the subtropes would be handled and not TRS.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 22nd 2024 at 9:34:13 AM

Bumping since I've fallen pretty behind on this. Right now I think the supertrope idea works, though as mentioned the trope often involves more implicit "begging"—kneeling, literal "kissing up" like in The Iliad example, or even something like someone giving a self-indulgent speech (whether it's entitled or just proselytizing) about how the debtee is "the only possible solution", so I'm wondering if we should frame it specifically as "conditional pride that's shown in-universe to be unconditionally pathetic, no matter the specific context", which might work better under a different name.

Also like the idea of moving "heroes begging" to another trope.

So Ain't Too Proud to Beg for the heroes... I think we should make the trope Begging Heroes as a heroic contrast for Villains Want Mercy. Both should be subtropes to Ain't Too Proud to Beg.

I think that just begging or begging for one's life is Chairs.

As far as launching the subtropes, do we want to coordinate that? and if so how?

Well, then make the two tropes we have the sister tropes. Ain't Too Proud to Beg becomes for heroes and otherwise non-villainous characters, while Villains Want Mercy is for the bad guys.

i mentioned this earlier, but that plan creators an odd gap— Villains Want Mercy only covers begging for mercy specifically. so if this trope covers heroes only, then we have tropes that cover heros begging for mercy, heroes begging for other things, and villians begging for mercy, but no trope for villians begging for other things. it's a weird way to divide things

I propose merging Villains Want Mercy into Ain't Too Proud to Beg. I think the "pathetic begging" part is what the trope should be and don't see much value in distinguishing between heroic and villainous examples. I don't see much point in distinguishing between villains wanting mercy specifically (which already tends to be pathetic) and pathetic begging overall.

Supertrope is an okay idea too, I guess.

Edited by PhiSat on Feb 16th 2024 at 2:46:11 AM

Villians Want Mercy, isn't just about villians begging, but aboht them not wanting to suffer for their crimes. The non-villian version would just be People don't Want to Die, where the villain threatens someone and they surrender. Arguably, a lot of examples of that are covered by Kneel before Zod. That is more about the villain though. And I think that is an issue. People either surrendering or begging for their lives is chairs. There needs to be another element to it. Like the heroine begging for the life of the hero.

I hate to make things more complicated, but back in my early troping days, I'd assumed the trope had more to do with begging a romantic partner not to leave - which is what the The Temptations song that's the Trope Namer is about. If that isn't what the trope is about, is it a subtrope?

That’s Please, Don't Leave Me.

Good to know.

Been almost a week since this thread's last post, and there's no crowner, nor does there appear to be any consensus on what action should be taken. Should this thread be clocked?

I can try to holler for a crowner later if there's enough discussion. I think what we need to do is define the most common usage and then work from there, though as mentioned "someone begs for something" feels PSOC. Also talk about how people feel about a rename.