Snoot Game cleanup

I mean, the reason it's been said a dozen times already is because "There's this fan game openly made out of spite towards a different game with a Non-Binary protagonist, and this fan game has four endings, two good ones where the protagonist rejects being enby and everything goes better for them, and two bad ones where they remain enby and either shoot up their school and kill themselves, or become a jaded washout junkie failure, respectively," then, like... the idea that it is even remotely debatable that the primary purpose of this game is an anti-LGBT - specifically extremely anti-NB - screed against the progressive politics of the developers of the original game, is just so preposterously ridiculous that no-one could possibly pretend, in the face of this information, that it is not.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Oct 6th 2023 at 12:16:26 PM

At the end of the day, the game has too much questionable material to give the benefit of the doubt.

I think it's important to note that the original draft for the game was more blatant about the game's anti-trans messages. This only changed after an anon from 4chan's /lit/ board adviced the devs to make it more subtle/hidden (and thus more palatable for a wider audience).

I don't see how can someone truly say that the game's intentions are ambiguous when all that supposed ambiguity is there by design in order to give the devs the benefit of doubt. I'd go as far as calling it a dogwhistle.

Where that information comes from btw? I remember there was a "thank you" note for this hidden in the game files, but so far i was unable to find it.

That's untrue. I looked at the critique that was actually given, and it wasn't at all about hiding or making it more palatable.

It was a critique of how the story missed the point of the character's struggles by just resolving it with "saving" her and making her into a traditional wife. Fang's actual struggles in Snoot Game were about self-actualization and agency, and a good ending should address them.

The archive website is currently down so I can't see the whole thing, but I quoted part of it earlier in the thread: "It shouldn't matter if she's goth or bisexual, as long as this comes from within, and not because this will make up for her lack of personhood. This is why tradwife is missing the point a bit, it's substituting colored hair and pronouns for Jesus and prayer. She still does it because its an identity without any real substance of the self behind it."

I also don't know if that first draft was even written by Cavemanon, or if it was just something that random posters on the board made, which Cavemanon then expanded upon. Either way, I think it's likely that their attitudes evolved as they worked on the story.

Fang's gender identity seems to be something that the Snoot Game fandom, and even its developers, don't put much focus on. You could argue this is just to make it more subtle, but I think it's also that they really don't view it as a major, intrinsic part of her character. Fang puts a lot of importance on it at first, but SG's story depicts Fang adopting an edgy genderqueer goth/punk rocker identity to try and find out who she really is. Fang's "detransition" seems to solely consist of using different pronouns and words, and years later having a less edgy fashion style and using her birth name again.

And maybe it's just that I haven't spent much time discussing fandom and media, but to me this game doesn't even come close to "extremely anti-LGBT". Especially in the context of anti-LGBT sentiment elsewhere. Many US states have been pushing for draconic anti-trans and even anti-gay rights laws, banning youth hormone treatment, requiring teachers to out students to their parents, restricting bathroom use, approving Prager U propaganda videos for school. Conservatives use extreme rhetoric against LGBT people that I don't need to repeat here.

I don't mean this as an appeal to worse problems to say "oh well things are worse elsewhere so it doesn't matter". Lesser bigotry is still bigotry. But I think it gives perspective on what "extremely anti-LGBT" even means.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 7th 2023 at 7:51:03 AM

Well. Considering that 4chan has been actively monitoring this thread for some time (images of the game's article in the "games that promote bigotry edits" were shared there around late September) and someone from the Snoot Game threads doxxed me two days ago, I don't think I can talk about this topic impartially or give anyone who defends this game in this thread any benefit of the doubt. This isn't a case where fans of a game feel it's being unfairly treated or misinterpreted, this is people trying to share this game more broadly to push an agenda and a David vs. Goliath narrative of them triumphing over evil Canadians. Because the truth — that SG is a generic barebones VN laced with thinly-veiled anti-trans rhetoric used to attack an indie studio before their game came out — is inconvenient.

I think these should be rewritten: "Bury Your Gays" mentions ending 2 as being an example despite fang's survival. It should really only focus on ending 1 since in that one they do die. It seems the second ending was included in the explanation to fit the whole "in the 2 bad endings they stay NB". So I would probably change it to: "Bury Your Gays": During the 'Bowling for Volcano High' ending, at the climax of their shooting spree, Fang commits suicide by jumping off the school roof.

Even then this is kind of a stretch, since Fang's suicide isn't related to them being NB and more that they think no one cares about them + the implication that they almost killed the one person that in her mind actually appreciated them. I would probably change this to "Driven To Suicide" instead since that actually reflects the scenario that happens.

The Cure Your Gays should probably be rewritten aswell (if not outright removed). At the moment it implies that the player can influence Fang's decision to de-transition. This isn't the case, the player can influence other things (like trying to help mend Fang + Naser's relationship) but Fang's de-transition is something they do on their own accord. So if the trope is to be left, I think it should be changed to:

"Cure Your Gays": Dependent on prior interactions, before the prom, Fang will reveal to Anon their decision to de-transition during the events of the endings "Volcano Highschool Musical" or "Fast Times at Volcano High".

Look Wolf, I've seen you posting about Snoot Game on Twitter and Tumblr and I don't think you were ever impartial towards it. The fact you appeared in the credits of Goodbye Volcano High by name, makes your bias obvious...

Edited by TP11 on Oct 7th 2023 at 7:07:41 AM

"It's likely that their attitudes evolved as they worked on the story"

Okay, so now you're just 'Sure, there's evidence that this all began as an anti-LGBT spite project by the developers, but also... maybe they just changed during development? Who can say?" I said before that just because you're a fan of the work doesn't automatically invalidate your opinion on it, but this level of outright denial of anything even remotely wrong in a work written out of spite in which failing to support an enby character out of their enby-ness results in them shooting up their school is just... wrong.

This is complete nonsense, because Fang's journey was already in progress in Goodbye Volcano High. The idea that this is just an innocent and well-meaning portrayal of someone exploring their identity and deciding not to transition is total bullshit. It's a Fix Fic with somebody else's character in which being enby is apparently something that needs to be 'fixed'.

Holy shit. I'm sorry to hear that, and also, that 4chan post... holy shit.

Yeah, if 4chan are monitoring this thread in order to harass people who criticize their shitty hate game then I'm immediately in favour of cutting the entire thing.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Oct 7th 2023 at 3:02:30 PM

I got mistaken and I was wrong, sorry about that. I think I mixed up the details of the /lit/ anon's feedback, the original draft of the game, and the original green text.

Bury Your Gays isn't necessarily about a character dying because they are queer, it's more about the meta implications about killing queer characters within the context of the narrative, regardless of the circumstances of their death.

"in which failing to support an enby character out of their enby-ness results in them shooting up their school is just... wrong."

This is what I mean. This is just flat out incorrect. Fang doesn't shoot up the school because they are NB. They do it because of a domino effect scenario. 1. Their band gets the job to play at the prom. 2. Before they get on stage Fang's guitar string breaks 3. Unable to find a replacement they resort to a Bass like at the beginning of the game 4. The crowd reacts negatively to the music. 5. As Fang is upset onstage someone decides to Carrie them and throw punch at them. 6. After running off stage Anon finds them and the two leave the prom, Anon let's slip about Naomi's plan. 7. At Anon's place, Anon decides to start playing video games. 8. Fang asks Anon about what he meant about Naomi's plan. 9. Anon brushes it off but Fang gets pissed and gets a direct answer. 10. Fang has a breakdown over the revelation that Naomi had been manipulating their life by setting Anon and Fang up and Naomi did it so Naser would stop worrying about Fang. 11. Anon and Fang have a fight about this. 12. The fight peters off and they go to sleep. 13. Fang leaves the next day, anon spends all day playing video games. 14. Fang comes back. Anon just pretends the previous days events didn't happen. 15. During the night Fang disables Anon's alarm clock. 16. Fang goes to school and you know the rest.

None of that has anything to do with Fang being NB. It would be like saying they did it because they wear black. Unsurprisingly if you help Fang to resolve some of their underlying issues (mainly their strained relationship with Naser) this ending can be avoided quite easily. You actively have to go out of your way to be a dirtbag to even get this ending at all.

Edited by TP11 on Oct 7th 2023 at 7:22:24 AM

x4 I'm sorry, someone said that they were doxxed and your initial reaction is to say that you've been reading their Twitter and Tumblr posts, and also that you're aware that they're in the credits of a game that you openly hate and almost certainly did not play?

Yeah, that 4chan thread really explains the sudden influx of "Just because if you don't support the enby character out of their enby-ness then they shoot up their school and kill themselves, doesn't mean that this game is, like, anti-LGBT or anything!" posts.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Oct 7th 2023 at 3:22:43 PM

Regarding Emblematic Noon comment of "A lot of posters seem to be taking the most uncharitable position on Snoot Game, to a strange degree."

I don't think there's anything strange for people to have strong feelings towards a game in one way or another. I DO think it's strange that Emblematic Noon has never edited the wiki and is posting in the forums for the very first time to come to this thread to defend the game.

It's kinda weird, especially considering the things that Nanaki mentioned.

Now see you are making a leap yourself. I played Goodbye Volcano High, that's why I recognized their name in the credits. I also don't obsessively read their twitter or tumblr posts but it's not hard to notice that when you search "Snoot Game" on tumblr, one of Wolf's posts is the top result (with the tag 'Fuck Snoot Game').

Also where have I openly expressed that I hate Goodbye Volcano High? I don't hate it. I think it's a bit bland and probably should have been $15-$20. But I wouldn't say I hate it.

In regards to what you said Fluemco about the "Bury Your Gays" trope. Fair enough, I was basing it off what the entry page described and I possibly misinterpreted what it said since it lacked discussion in regards to character suicides in the main heading section beyond the "Gayngst-Induced Suicide" sub-trope which doesn't really apply to Snoot. In that case it's probably fair to leave Bury Your Gays, but I still think it should be reworded to focus on ending 1 rather than it be broad.

Edited by TP11 on Oct 7th 2023 at 7:44:46 AM

UchuuFlamenco: Yup. This thread was quiet for two months, then a post appeared on /v/ showing this cleanup thread, and suddenly the thread was revitalized with people arguing in favor of Snoot Game, starting with Boredman. I'm not pointing fingers, just observing.

Hey, TP11. You say you've paid attention to my Twitter and Tumblr, yet you're gendering me as they/them instead of she/her? What's up with that? Plus it would be trivial to see my name in the credits without playing the game since I mentioned it on my Twitter and it was screencapped in the dox of me.

Edited by WolfNanaki on Oct 7th 2023 at 10:49:41 AM

I was wondering should the other notable characters that have dedicated character sprites get character entries? I was going to add images to the other character entry pages.

x4 It's not making much of a leap when someone says that they have been doxxed and the immediate reaction of someone else is to let them know "I've seen your Twitter, I've seen your Tumblr, and I also know that you are in the credits of this video game (incidentally all of this information was likely present in the doxx.)" It's just... a weird thing to say.

I think it's best to have the discussion in its own dedicated thread, rather than part of one larger thread.

It's important to stress that it's not Nanaki's fault that she's been targeted by 4channers. But I can see from looking around that Nanaki seems to be the single most prominent critic of Snoot Game on social media. That's bound to make her a lightning rod for harassment, but she doesn't deserve that.

I downloaded and played through this game last month. Looking around to see where people were discussing it, I found this thread on TV Tropes. I started posting in this thread on Sept 22. I don't know when 4chan took notice of this thread, but that screenshot is from *today*. I don't appreciate the implication.

x7 Nor do I appreciate what Elmo is implying about all the other posters in this thread who disagree.

I haven't been a regular poster on this site in around a decade. But it's one of the few places on the web that actually has a place to document and discuss the game, and I saw a number of things wrong with the page and this thread.

Regardless, Nanaki, I'm sorry you're going through that garbage. Stay safe, and don't let them intimidate you. I don't want people harassing others over some internet game drama and it's pathetic that anybody would do something like that.

Aside from all that, I want to talk about the thread's criticism of Snoot Game itself. I agree, boiling down the game to its basic outline, it has a correlation between Fang identifying as NB and having a bad ending. But that's such a reductive way to analyze media, it's like using the Bechdel Test as a serious critique instead of an observation that you can use to investigate further.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 7th 2023 at 11:13:54 AM

It is not reductive in the slightest to point out, yet again, that the original work that this parody is based on has a Non-Binary protagonist, and the two bad endings of this game have them continue to identify as NB (and also they become a washed up junkie and/or shoot up their school,) and the two good endings of this game have them stop identifying as NB and everything goes much better for them. To claim that this is only a correlation if you 'boil the game down to its basic outline' is complete 100% dishonesty.

Also if we go back to that 4chan post, it sure is crazy how despite totally not being an anti-LGBT work or driven by spite towards Goodbye Volcano High, the person who wrote that post in support of Snoot Game is clearly massively anti-LGBT and hates Goodbye Volcano High. Why on earth would such a person be attracted to this game? Truly, a mystery for the ages.

(x5) "Any issues should be taken up with the moderators of that site, if any."

Oh sure that'll totally work, the infamously toxic alt-right website putting a stop to harassment. From my personal experience the only time 4chan mods ever do anything about anything is if you criticize their incompetent moderation or post ponies outside of /mlp/.

As for the Snoot Game article itself, I think it might be best to cut the gushing then lock the page until the drama dies down.

I mean, Fighteer is right in that there's nothing TVT can really do here. They don't have the power to punish 4Chan trolls acting on their own website, away from TVT

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 7th 2023 at 2:14:25 PM

Sorry you are being harassed Wolf Nanaki. Hope it can be stopped soon. ^^I agree. No heartwarming page, (lock it from being made) and we cut the compliments. It isn't reductive, let's be honest the game is 100% anti-lgbt. If you like it Boredman, that is okay, but I don't think this game is worth talking about and given it's main idea it originated from there is simply no way it won't be overshadowed by drama. We need to edit it to be matter of fact at most and not advertise the game with notes of positive tropes, or say "this game is awesome" or even give off that implication.

Edited by Wildcard on Oct 7th 2023 at 2:21:32 PM

That is completely true, but that's why I went for 'Just cut the page'. If mere discussion of the work is attracting the attention of bigoted people off-site who are prone to harassment of people on this site then... is it worth the trouble of keeping? Because let's be real, this isn't exactly Citizen Kane. It's a fan-game made out of spite by some anonymous 4channers about how being Non-Binary is a driving factor in wanting to shoot up your school. Its greatest accomplishment in terms of recognition is... this TVTropes page, and possibly a brief mention in a Kotaku article about Goodbye Volcano High.

Also just out of pettiness, if there's a screenshot of some asshat complaining that, quote, "the tv tropes faggots are literally arguing that the snoot game page can't have a heartwarming page because it's apparently impossible to derive good feelings from a game they believe is LITERALLY HITLER," then I say cut the page not just because it immediately ends the discussion, minimizing the odds of any further harassment, but also because it would make that guy really annoyed and upset, which would objectively be good and also extremely funny.

I think ultimately we're reaching a point where this is less discussion about a game and more discussion about ideologies. Which doesn't really contribute to the cleanup or the entry in general. While I would like to keep it around, I think it's obvious that Snoot Game is too controversial of a subject to be kept on the site. I'm with Elmo just delete the page altogether and be done with it.

Edited by TP11 on Oct 7th 2023 at 12:05:33 PM