How should gendered redirects be used?

"Promoted Fanboy isn't really about gender"

(Then it's not really a topic for this thread?) Promoted Fan is a redirect, and when possible, we want redirects to be used as little as never. The issue with gendered redirects was that listing a male trope to a female character, if still applicable, would look weird and technically inaccurate, so we're letting some cases slide.

Under that reasoning, I could also see a case for a concession for Creator pages.

Honestly... While I didn't feel strongly enough before to challenge the crowner, I will admit. Never saw the point of gendered redirects if we weren't allowed to use them. I can't imagine they're useful for searching.

I was against the use of gender redirects being used at all in trope lists but the crowner voted but that's not where the crowner went.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 24th 2022 at 10:01:55 AM

One wonders if perhaps there should be a policy that non-gendered tropes/ymmvs/trivias should avoid having gendered names in the first place.

You mean like adding to Naming a Trope / TLP Guidelines: "Consider carefully if the concept is Always Female / Always Male when naming a TLP draft"?

Hope this isn't a necro.

^^ Agreed, though I notice some already have redirects, like Promoted Fan. Why can't we just use the gender-neutral redirects as default?

Because the crowner said no.

Yes, I'm aware that's not really a reason so much as a Captain Obvious statement (and as I said above I've always been confused at why using gendered redirects was considered bad), but that's what it came down to. People voted and people didn't want these redirects to be used. While I can get the alphabetizing concerns I voted for the "if they don't affect alphabetization" one... so I can't explain the result from the POV of people who disagreed with the redirect usage.

Edit: As for why we can't use them as the default, well... Because they're not the correct title of the trope and unless we go through the process of making all these tropes gender neutral up front, then unfortunately we can't just treat them like they are.

Basically what it boils down to is, we're only supposed to use the correct trope names except in special cases. Redirects don't count as the correct trope names, so we can't just use the gender neutral redirects even if they'd make more sense.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 24th 2022 at 9:55:21 AM

Thanks for the explanation. I feel like this may cause consternation down the line, especially since we've seen at least one suspension over it. I don't mean to keep tilting at a dead horse, but is there an official policy for re-opening a crowner if this does become significant/enough tropers argue against it?

Edited by WELCOME_BRIGADOR on Sep 24th 2022 at 7:04:07 AM

For clarity's sake, the suspension was for the edit war. The fact that person violated the updated gender redirects policy is just a secondary factor.

Anyways, as to why I am against gendered redirects on trope lists, I just never saw the trope names as reflecting on the character, so I never really saw the need. However, I am also against tropes having gendered names when they aren't gender specific but of course that's not a good enough reason to rename a trope (alone).

EDIT: As for reopening the crowner...I don't know about that. We just came to this decision a couple of months ago and I rather not have to do it again until we get more discussion.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 24th 2022 at 10:10:34 AM

I guess my case boils down to... They're there for some reason and if they don't help with SEO I can only imagine they were made to be used on the wiki. If they didn't exist I'd be arguing that making them isn't necessary, but they're here now so I guess I'm just unsure why they're around at all if we can't use them. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I don't normally see a need, unless it applies to IRL people. I just foresee potential drama over misgendering (big or small) to be an issue.

FWIW, in the case of the Deltarune example, I've always considered "fanboy" to be gender neutral, but other users don't see that as the case.

Re: reopening - I'm fine with it as is, just that if we see more arguments to use GN terms, I'm wondering what's the process.

Agreed. Why have the redirects with policy right now?

Edited by WELCOME_BRIGADOR on Sep 24th 2022 at 7:13:55 AM

They're still allowed as inline wicks if we recall; things like

• Running the Asylum: When Promoted Fan Bob McNameface got hired as a writer for My Favorite Show, some long-standing Fandom Specific Plots suddenly became the plot of canon episodes

Fanboy and Fangirl have specific gendered connotations that "Fan" on its own does not have (to the point of even being considered different tropes due to the difference in portrayed attitudes in media). So I can see why that'd be an issue.

I guess I see the point in it being limited to Character or Creator pages when it's about one specific character/person. Did the crowner allow a vote for how to handle the redirects on pages in general or just for Character pages specifically?

There were two crowners. The first was made to determine what should be done with gender redirects and second was done to decide if we should factor in alphabetization disruption as well.

These were the options people voted for on the first crowner:

• Gendered redirects shouldn't be used in example lists regardless of context, main wikiwords only. If other options are upvoted with this one, they'll be exceptions. If downvoted, the "don't change the wording without a discussion" principle should apply.

• Allow gendered redirects on Characters/ pages where applicable.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 25th 2022 at 5:38:32 AM

Personally, I feel that redirects, gendered or otherwise, and regardless of the page they're on, should be edited to link to the main trope. Their use for a trope under any circumstances is one of those things that just bugs me. (Using a redirect to a work page's title is tolerable, though barely, in my opinion, and such redirects should be fixed when seen.)

But, just to clarify what was decided: if someone used a gendered redirect on a main work page (say, a Literature page), and not on that work's Character page, that means it should be changed to the original non-redirected link?

Until next time...

Anon e Mouse Jr.

Edited by AnoneMouseJr on Sep 26th 2022 at 3:27:10 PM

Do you feel the same way about alternate spelling redirects? Or do you not count those? I'm just asking because any "no redirects at all" policy would also get rid of the spelling-based redirects that allow people to use their regional spelling of each word.

I guess I'm of the camp that doesn't see the gendered redirects as being that different from the alt-spelling redirects, which is why their use doesn't bother me (especially if it doesn't affect alphabetization).

But right now, yes, these are allowed on characters pages but nowhere else at the moment.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 26th 2022 at 3:29:35 PM

I also downvoted gendered redirects on trope lists reasoning that titles are the names of the tropes. They're not supposed to be taken literally or be exactly correct in every case.

If you, say, want to add an example of Red Right Hand, except you note that Badguy l'Sinister doesn't have a red right hand but rather the defect signifying evil is his grey left ear, the correct way to write the title is Red Right Hand, not Grey Left Ear.

Same goes for article titles that don't refer exactly the subject's gender.

Knowing the "First come, first served" rule, , regional spelling on tropes that were created with said spelling doesn't bother me. And I resist the urge to change them when I see them used for any reason on a page.

But for the record, I'm a high-functioning autistic. I am rather obsessive when it comes to getting things right, and when I see a redirect being used rather than a straight link to a page (especially when it was changed from the original link to a redirect, based on an out-of-date "Ask the Tropers" discussion — from 2019, in this case), it just feels wrong to me. (Especially when said edit was made to a page I originally created.)

So... with this in mind (and for the purpose of avoiding an Edit War, since they changed something I added and I want to change it back), it's safe to revert this person's edit, right?

Until next time...

Anon e Mouse Jr.

Edited by AnoneMouseJr on Sep 26th 2022 at 3:51:14 PM

e: wrong thread

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 23rd 2024 at 1:20:09 PM