Good Girls Avoid Abortion: revision?

Not sure if this is the right place to post this or if it goes in the Trope Repair Shop, but I felt like the description for Good Girls Avoid Abortion should have more of an emphasis on the stigmatization of abortion as the primary reason for why abortion (a character undergoing the procedure itself, to be precise) is rarely depicted on screen (I know there’s already a reference to Moral Guardians, and I think it should be more prominent). It's such a controversial topic that in the rare instances it’s mentioned in film, TV, etc., usually the protagonist will not go through with the actual procedure, and that has more to do with how abortion itself is a controversial, hot-button topic.

Just thought I'd post here before making any major changes.

I suppose that my question is this: why do you think that the "moral guardian" element is the primary one?

The trope-page gives a few other potential reasons that abortion may be avoided by writers, and I don't see an apparent means of determining the writers' motivations from amongst those reasons. (Barring explicit statement from those writers, of course.)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 19th 2022 at 9:34:52 PM

Also, I kind of doubt that highlighting that aspect would make the trope less contentious...

Abortion has always been seen as a contentious topic and though Roe V. Wade legalized abortion in America, it is still seen as a very thorny issue that Hollywood studios are averse to depicting in film, regardless of writers' own individual leanings. The controversial nature of the topic, particularly the risk of alienating conservative audiences, is the primary reason why abortion remains taboo in the media. For example, in 2019, director Cameron Crowe was interviewed about a movie he wrote, Fast Times at Ridgemont High. The film, which came out in the 1980s, depicts an abortion scene in a realistic way and without moral outrage. Crowe said he would not be able to get away with including that scene in a film today. As this article says, "depicting abortion onscreen still feels courageous, chiefly because of the current climate around reproductive health care."

Also, not aiming to make the article less contentious, just trying to get at the root of why abortion is rarely seen on screen in the first place.

What makes you say this? After all, media has depicted other controversial topics, I believe.

See for example homosexual relationships and/or intimacy, which (I feel that) we seem to be seeing more commonly and more freely these days, and which is also strongly opposed by some.

Okay, those are two fair examples. Although I'll confess that it doesn't feel to me like enough by which to confidently conclude that the "moral guardian" element is the primary one.

Hmm... I suppose let me ask this: If you remember, how did you, specifically, come to this conclusion? Perhaps your reason for so concluding will be helpful. (If you don't remember, then that's okay. I'm just trying to find a line of argument that might be convincing one way or another.)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 20th 2022 at 12:31:36 PM

I think I'd like to see some research on why abortion is stigmatized in media and in which countries...

It took decades for LGBTQ+ stories and relationships to make their way on screen because of societal stigma, discrimination, etc., and even though media depictions and frequency are improving, there is still a lot of work to be done in representing the community accurately and realistically. There is even a trope on here, Bury Your Gays, that talks about the representation problems. What I am taking away from your quote is the idea that because there are movies with gay people today like Call Me by Your Name, Brokeback Mountain, etc. that means the issue of homosexuality is no longer as controversial. Is that assessment of your quote correct?

Since abortion is a controversial topic, with many states in America currently pushing anti-abortion legislation in particular, can you see why TV networks and Hollywood studios would want to shy away from the topic? The Fast Times example is just one of many but I did not feel it was necessary to list them all. Not sure what else to say here that has not already been detailed in extensive research on reproductive rights (see links below).

Breaking the taboo of abortion on TV and film via The Independent

Abortion Onscreen in 2021 via research group at UCSF

A short history of abortion on film via British Film Institute

10 Countries Where Abortion Is Illegal Under Most Circumstances via US News.

Hope this helped.

I wouldn't argue with any of that, I believe.

No, not at all.

(I would argue that it's less controversial—not uncontroversial, but less so—today than it once was, but that's besides my point.)

Rather, I'm saying that homosexuality is controversial, even today—and yet we do see it on-screen.

The thing is, this seems speculative.

Regarding the links that you posted, I'll confess that I've only skimmed over the first three (the last, by its title, only seeming to discuss where abortion is illegal, and thus seeming irrelevant).

However, from what I see, the article from The Independent seems to be the only one that talks about reasons—and that article seems to consider multiple potential reasons for depictions to be as they are. (And suggests that the reasons vary geographically.)

However, as I said, I haven't read the articles deeply, and haven't read the last at all—I thus stand to be corrected by someone who has.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 20th 2022 at 3:50:18 PM

Heteronormative Crusaders are still common to this day, particularly in the United States.

If you look at the Real Life folder for Moral Guardians, you can see that at least half of the non-anime examples are from Americans.

There's a joke that the United States is the country that produces the most porn, but has the strongest opposition to it. The same can be said about LGBTQ+ media and media depicting abortions.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Jan 20th 2022 at 9:56:10 AM

I think it would be fair to add that in the US at least depictions are mostly negative as a result of anti-abortion sentiment. Studios don't want to offend too many viewers as the OP said.

To be honest, I think the proposal is more problematic than the trope as it actually is. We're here to explain the way abortion is shown in media and the reasons it is done that way (both narrative ones like setting up future stories, or out-of-universe ones like studios wanting to avoid controversy), not to endorse or condemn abortion in itself. The proposal is basically saying that abortion is good but there is a sinister conspiracy to stigmatize it and make it look bad... and that would just get us a new problem where we had none.

I should clarify I do not propose drastic changes to the trope page, as I am not saying to include any for or against positions and am not proposing to remove a lot of the content (also curious at where in my statement I said abortion is good. I posted statistics about abortion in America and its rare depiction onscreen to show how few stories there are because some think it is not a stigmatized, rare topic). I just suggest a mere footnote, somewhere near the top maybe, that can link to one of the articles I posted above. It simply gives context. Even the name of the trope itself shows how the topic of abortion is tied up in debates about morality and values, so I do not see how a minor note somewhere would make the page any more contentious.

One of the articles I posted above basically sums up the trope here:

Note that is not saying anything about whether abortion itself is good or bad, it is simply saying how abortion is so controversial that studios and networks would rather avoid the topic altogether (although this is slowly changing). If there is a plotline, it is common that the character either decides against the abortion or suffers or dies from complications, which is a misrepresentation of reality. Also curious what you mean about a sinister conspiracy to stigmatize it. Are you saying abortion is not a stigmatized or controversial topic?

More links for those not familiar with the topic:

Abortion in Pop Culture: From Fast Times and Maude to Dirty Dancing and Scandal via Glamour

Abortion has always been a tough subject for Hollywood. Parenthood got it right via Washington Post

Thanks. You get my point.

TBH I am inclined to agree with Grigor; this proposal seems like it would turn the page into a political soapbox, and one focused on US politics at that.

There’s already a quote and link at the top of the page that refers to what I’m getting at. It even mentions the A-word itself is rarely used when depicted onscreen. Heck, this trope page says, “It would not be too controversial for television writers to suggest an abortion, but it would be if she were actually to have one.” So, not sure how adding a line here or there is a major change (again, I’m not making a value judgment on abortion itself, I’m referring to how it’s depicted onscreen).

The main thing I’d change is a line like this:

It’s inaccurate to say that the main reason abortion plotlines are averted is because of plot purposes. I would just change it to:

The reasons abortion plotlines are commonly averted are to avoid polarizing/alienating a big chunk of the audience, or for plot-related reasons.

Most of the stuff I would be leaving in tact. I understand it is not meant to be an encyclopedic article that goes in-depth about media depictions, but at the very least it could be better written to explain the trope within the context of media, and media is shaped by culture and politics.

Heteronormative Crusaders are still common to this day, particularly in the United States.

I... Didn't say that they weren't...?

Well, that's another point: we don't just trope America. We have trope-examples from all over the world—or a fair percentage of it, I daresay.

On this I do actually agree with pearlescence78 that the proposal, as thus far described, doesn't seem to indicate a statement as to the morality of abortion.

Okay, but it then goes on to give other potential explanations, at the least where Britain is concerned:

From the article

As it stands, I'm not convinced that this is true.

Hmm... However, looking at the current text as quoted, I'm similarly not convinced that plot purposes are the most common ones. In both cases, I don't feel that I have much information to speak to the motivations of others, save where they've given indication.

Given this, the proposed wording, as quoted above, is arguably less speculative than the current.

I'd propose, then, this rewrite:

There are multiple potential reasons that abortion may be avoided in works. It may be in order to avoid the wrath of the Moral Guardians; or for fear of polarising or alienating a chunk of the audience; or simply because if the character had an abortion and everyone went home happy, it would make for an uninteresting and/or short story.

Thoughts?

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 21st 2022 at 9:25:12 PM