Misused (alt names crowner 28 Feb 2021): Deader Than Disco

Deader Than Disco is supposed to be about the reputation of a trend, work, genre, person, or something of that sort going from near-universally beloved with few detractors to near-universally hated with few fans. Unfortunately, it often gets misused for any kind of decline in popularity, even temporary ones or cases where a trend/work/genre/person/etc. has always been divisive. Other times, the trope is used as a shorthand for references to the decline in popularity of disco. Specifically, this collaborative wick check revealed the following:

• 18.92% of examples were correctly used
• 39.19% of examples were things that were not universally hated
• 25.68% of examples were just references to the downfall of disco
• 4.05% of examples pertained to other misuse, and
• 13.51% of examples were ZCEs.

There has been concern as well that the concept behind this trope is Too Rare to Trope, since opinions are never permanent. Anything can become loved again after being hated, there isn't really such a thing as something becoming permanently hated forever. There has also been debate about the criteria for this trope; some tropers think that it is too strict, disallowing so many examples that the threshold for something to be Deader Than Disco is unreasonably high, and some tropers think that the current criteria is necessary, as Deader Than Disco had actually went through an extensive cleanup effort that removed a gigantic amount of misuse that operated under the assumption that anything that lost popularity could count, which would make this trope too common to trope.

With all this in mind, I propose two possible solutions to fixing the problem. Either:

• Expand the scope of the trope to cover things that weren't universally loved and didn't become universally hated per se, which would cover some of the misuse, or
• Cut the trope altogether for being Too Rare to Trope.

I also propose making another trope for all of the references to the downfall/unpopularity of disco. I am not particularly experienced with the TLP however, so someone else may have to help with that. And if anyone else has any suggestions for how to fix this trope, fire away.

Opening this, but I have to say, Too Rare to Trope is totally inappropriate to cite here - as the page itself specifies it's for things that are so rare that you struggle to find examples for it. Even the wick check itself offers plenty of examples.

I don't think that this Audience Reaction requires anything more than making a TLP for that "disco bad" trope and a cleanup. Definitively not broadening, though.

Disagree. Broaden this. I've taken part in the long-term thread and there's a lot of examples that fit "was popular but had a massive fall from grace and are now considered old shames", but people are so strict on the universal part that they get turned down.

Edited by PhiSat on Feb 13th 2021 at 2:16:23 AM

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not sure the strict definition really exists out there in the wild, at least not in large quantities. No work or genre is universally disliked.

^ or universally liked.

Alright so maybe it isn't Too Rare to Trope, but I do think the threshold is unreasonably high. It seems I'm not alone, either. Maybe if a few more people chip in we could do a crowner?

From my experience in the clean-up thread, it seemed like there was only a couple of people really pushing for the "universal" rule and outright rejecting anything that failed the "man on the street" rule (essentially, if a random person on the street didn't know what you were talking about, it didn't count).

I understand that the rule was there to prevent really niche or obscure works from being listed, but then you'd have cases where Youtubers who used to have millions of subscribers couldn't count because the average man on the street doesn't know who they are, even if there's evidence to suggest immense popularity fading to irrelevance.

It's a tricky trope, and there was certainly tons of misuse before the clean-up thread arrived. I think there's a healthy balance between what the trope was and what it is now, but I'm not sure how to implement it.

On a related note, I think in-universe examples should be split off into their own trope. "Disco (or some other famous trend) is now considered lame by the characters" seems common enough to justify making a separate trope for it.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Feb 13th 2021 at 9:56:52 AM

OTOH, DTD may only be noteworthy because of the 180. The "street rule" is definitely too restrictive though.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 13th 2021 at 10:01:02 AM

I keep wondering if what we could do is change the trope from "universally loved to universally hated" to "mostly or entirely loved to mostly or entirely hated." I don't think opinions are universal, there is always someone who likes something unpopular or dislikes something popular.

But then I worry that might invite shoehorning. I don't know. I still think the current criteria is too strict, but we have to find some kind of medium.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 13th 2021 at 10:01:48 AM

I feel this trope is similar to Popularity Polynomial, except it hasn't quite recovered to its previous popularity. So, maybe looking at what qualifies for that trope can show us how to improve Deader Than Disco?

There appear not to be guidelines for Popularity Polynomial. Obviously I'm not saying we should do that here, I'm just saying looking at that trope isn't really helpful since that trope has no guidelines.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 13th 2021 at 4:30:51 AM

My opinion is that DTD is noteworthy because of how drastically people who are aware of the work changed their minds on it, and I agree that the "street rule" is way too restrictive. I believe changing the definition to something like "mostly or entirely loved to mostly or entirely hated" would make sense. Honestly I would be okay with somewhat niche or obscure works being listed as long as someone can demonstrate that they've gone from mostly or entirely loved to mostly or entirely hated in their niche.

I agree on the allowing things within a niche part, although we might be alone on that one.

I think that sounds fair. The reaction doesn't only exist with well known works.

Deader Than Disco also has a rule that series that are currently running can't count, which I think is a fair enough restriction. But if not, we could always implement a waiting period to help curb knee-jerk reactions instead.

I agree with broadening, but keeping some kind of waiting period or time restriction.

Should the genre have to stay dead forever? Disco itself is currently undergoing somewhat of a revival.

Popularity Polynomial covers that. Disco has seen a revival though, I know there's an entire sub-genre of electronic music called nu-disco which combines disco with modern electronic music. Maybe another name is needed for this trope too. On the cleanup thread a while back someone suggested Hype Reversion, maybe that would be a good name?

Additionally, since most participants in this thread want to broaden the trope, but there is some dissent to that idea, should we do a crowner? (I'll also add that I agree with there being a waiting period.)

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 14th 2021 at 2:28:55 PM

Since a quarter of the wick check was about the downfall of disco instead of the trope, should Deader Than Disco be renamed? I can't think of another solution to stop the potholes.

I missed that the first time I read your post. Sorry.

Edited by Kevjro7 on Feb 16th 2021 at 6:55:14 AM

Popularity 180?

I had suggested in the post above yours that the trope be renamed to Hype Reversion, a name suggested in the cleanup thread. A new trope for the disco references (or references to any now-hated fad) would be a good idea I think. Can't think of a name though.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 14th 2021 at 4:23:10 AM

Reversion: a return to a previous state, practice, or belief.

I don't think Hype Reversion is a good rename—or redirect for that matter—because it implies the work was hated from the very beginning, became popular, and then went back to being hated. Deader Than Disco requires the work to beloved from the beginning. If anything, Hype Reversion sounds like a good name for a trope that's the opposite of Popularity Polynomial.

I think the waiting period should be a year minimum.

Ah, OK. I was just going by what the cleanup thread had suggested.

I think we should make a crowner at some point for all the options discussed thus far. How does that sound?

Definitely on the "Expand This" camp. There's value in talking about things that were massively successful at release but haven't maintained any lasting legacy and why that is, but the (dareidsay myopic and inconsistently-applied) "man on the street" test basically makes that impossible.

If shoehorning is an issue (and yes the pre-cleanup version of the page was damn bad), perhaps a solution could be to require objective evidences for both the initial success (so that people don't just list things that were successful by some metric but already divise at release) and the downfall. For example, an entry on a youtuber could talk about very high subscriber number and views and then contrast with declining subscriber count and views on more recent uploads. Entries on commercial works could point to high aggregate ratings from industry publications vs poor sales and reviews on rereleases, poor commentary on themed retrospectives, a notable industry publication or critic 180ing their praise for the entry (as in the Battle Arena Toshinden example). That should be more than enough to keep the "Avatar had a big box office but people in my social circle don't talk too much about it so obviously nobody likes it anymore" and "I can't believe my little railway car is this cute was considered a foundational work in the Thomas The Tank Engine Genderbent Fan Fiction genre but now people can only look at the typos and incestual subtext" stuff.

Edited by Glowsquid on Feb 14th 2021 at 5:48:34 AM

That's an interesting idea. Broaden, but require citations for both popularity and downfall. Though we would have to work out exactly what kind of citations. You gave some ideas, but I think a larger discussion should be had. What should be required for something to be this trope? The "man-on-the-street" test is unreasonably restrictive IMO (and I've seen things be approved on the cleanup thread that would fail that test), but then what should replace it?

Generally speaking, I think a good set of rules for a work to qualify, it should:

• Be considered incredibly popular among it's target audience during the initial release.
• Have any dissenters during be considered a Vocal Minority at worst at the time.
• Have said minority gain traction over time until it becomes the popular consensus.
• Eventually lead to the work being the subject of ridicule or scorn. Any fans left are either in the minority or consider it a Guilty Pleasure.

Basically, think an extreme version of Hype Backlash. I feel the last part is important, as it prevents works that have just slipped into obscurity, which was where some of the misuse came from.

I'm not sure if a year-long waiting period is long enough though. Maybe five-to-ten years would work better?