Dungeons & Dragons lore!

One of the "more heroic" ideas I had in mind focuses on the fact that it is possible to leave the Mists and that, in Barovia (and thus, esasily extendable to other Domains) most people don't have souls.

So the goal can easily pivot from "killing the big bad" to "saving innocent souls in torment"

Killing Strahd, by RAW, only puts his torment on pause, but it can allow players to save souls that have been suffering for ___ (insert amount of time your players will find believably tragic but not so long it seems hyperbolic).

The 5E Strahd campaign has plenty of examples, such as the Order of the Silver Dragon.

Edited by ArthurEld on Dec 19th 2023 at 10:48:44 AM

You can argue that works in Call of Cthulhu but part of the issue is that Ravenloft is based on Hammer Horror.

In which case the heroes absolutely are meant to be able to defeat the monsters with the power of Good TM.

And again, nothing is stopping you from playing Ravenloft campaigns like that.

granted hammer horror is more toward dracula, frankenstein and little monster, the dark lords are a step beyond that.

I will said the premise of setting can be kinda off putting because is gear more toward a sort of gothic novel were the point is hell are others, it focus on the drama of the dark lords and its kinda neat.

But it clash with the "get stronger, do action scene, kill the baddie, get the girl and loot and ride way"

Yo. I've been playing 5e recently. Wanted to make a specific backup character but I'm held back by my lack of lore knowledge.

Short version is that he's a NG Aasimar Fiend Warlock. He works for some sort of LE fiend and hunts down escaped devils and/or demons, Ghost Rider style (hence NG).

Does anyone know if a specific patron would work with this concept?

That's an interesting concept! I'm not gonna knee-jerk and say "A Good character would never work for a fiend!" because the point of being Neutral Good is that you're pragmatic about doing good, which can lead to this sort of "yes, my power's coming from Hell, but I'm not doing evil with it" situation, and even an Enemy Mine with a fiend.

Now, the first thing you need to keep in mind about D&D fiends is that the Demon/Devil Distinction is important — devils are Lawful Evil and all about leading mortals into damnation, demons are Chaotic Evil and all about destroying or corrupting everything around them, and the two have despised each other since the dawn of creation. The second thing is that the Nine Hells isn't a prison/torture cellar like the Christian Hell (which is pretty fucked-up now that I type it out), it's a place where damned mortal souls are subjected to excruciating tortures that culminate in the Death of Personality and the soul shell's conversion into a new devil ready to take its place on the infernal corporate ladder, seeking promotion to a stronger form. Any demons on the plane are almost always part of an invasion force clashing with the devilish legions defending the top layer of the Nine Hells.

So prisoners in Hell are usually damned, deceased mortals on their way to the torture cellar, hostages being held to manipulate a key actor on the Material Plane, or captured adventurers that the devils would like to damn, kill, and then convert into a new devil through the aforementioned torture. I can't think of any detention camps where demons captured on the battlefield are held - demons have no incentive to surrender when they invade the Nine Hells, since if slain there, they'll just respawn in the Abyss later, and presumably the devils find it too much of a hassle to try and subdue the invaders. Though there would be a reason to try and do that, to keep the demons from respawning, hence why a demon prince is being held prisoner in the Nine Hells in the Escape from Avernus adventure. But devils might also be pragmatic enough to realize that it's better to temporarily kill their foes and make them wait to respawn than it is to have a big prison full of enemy POWs that might escape and cause havoc. And of course the Abyss is endlessly generating fresh demons, so it'd be impossible to subdue and imprison invading demons faster than new ones crawl out of the Abyssal muck.

Let's not dismiss the Ghost Rider concept, though. Maybe your character's devilish patron was running an experimental demon-capturing program, to test the feasibility of such a strategy, or maybe they were in charge of a secret prison where a select number of demons who absolutely cannot be allowed to return to the Abyss were being held. In either case, there was a jailbreak and a bunch of prisoners escaped through a gate to the Material Plane, but the demons' innate planeshifting abilities (if any) have been suppressed somehow, so they're stuck on that plane. The devil is desperate to get the prisoners back before their superiors notice, so they've struck a bargain with your character - they give you warlock powers, leads on those escaped demons, and some way to send them back to the Nine Hells when the demons are defeated (since as I mentioned, fiends slain outside their home plane will eventually respawn on it). But you've got to deliver on your end before time runs out, otherwise your patron gets demoted, and then... well, you'll have a slightly-less-powerful but very vengeful devil out there who knows exactly who you are and what you're capable of, and they'll pull the plug on your warlock abilities to make dragging you off to hell easier. Which isn't to say that you won't have to be careful even if everything goes well. Your devilish patron won't break the letter of any bargain struck with you, but they'll certainly be eager to cover up their mishap, including making sure any mortal subcontractor is in no position to blab about it. Accidents do happen, after all...

As for which archfiend in particular might be a patron for such a fiend-hunting, Good warlock:

• Zariel, Lord of the First, is usually preoccupied with defending the top layer of the Hells from demonic invasions, but she might have started a demon detention center as an experimental new tactic in the Blood War. She's also famous for hiring/conscripting mortals to act as her agents, so she wouldn't have any problem striking a deal with your character to round up those escapees - ideally before Bel, the former Lord of Avernus, finds out about her blunder and uses it to justify her ouster. As a (relatively) recently-fallen celestial herself, Zariel would have an intriguing relationship with an aasimar who still clings to goodness.
• Archduke Dispater of Dis rules an Orwellian nightmare metropolis and deals heavily in information, so it'd be easy to imagine him keeping a black site deep beneath Dis, full of captive demons he pumps for intelligence. Due to his extreme paranoia, he'd also be a particularly dangerous patron as soon as he decides your character has outlived your usefulness to him and has become a liability rather than an asset.
• Viscount Mammon is normally concerned only with money as the root of all evil, but he might well have been paid to run some sort of demonic prison on behalf of someone else. And due to his legendary stinginess, it's not hard to imagine the inmates exploiting how Mammon cheaped out on the prison, and Mammon being desperate to make sure no one finds out that he embezzled some of the funds meant for security.
• Belial and Fierna, co-rulers of Phlegethos, are both fond of seducing mortals into sin, and might view a Neutral Good aasimar as an interesting challenge. Since the two are also constantly scheming and counter-scheming against each other, a hunt for escaped demonic prisoners would almost certainly play into that, with one trying to cover up the blunder before the other learns of it.
• Prince Levistus of Stygia actually has some 3.5th Edition lore that makes him almost perfect for a Ghost Rider scenario. Stygia has a facility known as the Hall of the Vanquished, a combination museum and training center full of ice sculptures of angels, chaos creatures, and yes, demons. Each sculpture contains the soul of the creature depicted, captured by the spell bind to hell, which when cast on a weapon that then deals the death blow to a creature, sends that creature's soul to the Hall of the Vanquished, preventing them from being raised from the dead normally until they're freed. With written approval from a senior fiend, someone can temporarily thaw one of those captives for some "live-fire training" within the Hall - if slain in there, the captive creature instantly returns to its pedestal with a new expression of tormented frustration on its frozen face. Normally, captives who somehow escape the Hall of the Vanquished either move on to their proper afterlife (if mortal) or have the opportunity to plane shift home (if a fiend or angel or the like), but maybe something went wrong, and a bunch of demonic captives teleported to the Material Plane and aren't immediately able to return home to the Abyss. In this scenario, Levistus would be very interested in getting those trophies/prisoners back, and would be very familiar with the process of capturing valuable training subjects.
• Glasya, Princess of Hell and daughter of Asmodeus himself, is in her current characterization something of a subversive Lawful Evil being, willing to bend and twist the law in unusual directions. Keeping a bunch of demons prisoner sounds like one of her odd schemes, and she'd certainly want to cover up any mishap involved before daddy finds out. She's also an infamous seductress who likes to target Good mortals for corruption, which would make her an interesting patron.
• Archduke Baalzebul is a grand schemer who rather infamously overextended himself in a way that nearly let the demons overrun the Nine Hells, so him having to work with a mortal to round up some escaped prisoners is entirely in-character. He'd just have to be more creative than usual in covering his ass, since he's currently cursed to be unable to lie to other devils, and for deals struck with him to end in disaster for his partner... which makes him a very dangerous patron. But does your well-meaning character know that bit of infernal lore?
• Archduke Mephistopheles just loves striking pacts with mortals, letting them wield hellfire in a way that hopefully leaves them hungering for more power until their souls are his, so he's a very viable warlock patron. He's also big on arcane experiments, so maybe the demons he wants your character to recapture were being used as live subjects in a top-secret magical weapons program, indirectly giving them information about Mephistopheles' plans that can't be allowed to spread to the Abyss. Information that it might be very dangerous for a mortal to learn.
• Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine is one of the greatest Chessmasters in the multiverse. Why would he be holding a group of demons prisoner? Why would he want them recaptured rather than simply destroyed and banished back to the Abyss? Why would he empower a mortal to do his dirty work for him, particularly an aasimar? Who can say, but it's almost certainly part of a wider plot that bodes ill for the rest of the cosmos.

Alternatively, if you do want to relax the "recapturing fiends who escaped from hell" angle to "working on behalf of a fiend against other fiends," that's extremely feasible. Since demons and devils hate each other, it makes perfect sense for a devil to empower and guide a mortal to go after their ancient foes, foiling their plans on the Material Plane while the devil wages the Blood War on the Outer Planes. And if they can try to tempt that naive little aasimar into adopting a more Lawful Evil outlook, all the better! Also bear in mind that devils despise each other only a little less than they do demons, and are constantly scheming against and backstabbing each other as they try and advance their careers. It makes just as much sense for a devil to direct a mortal to disrupt a rival devil's damnation operations on the Material Plane as it does for them to send that mortal against a demon.

This was a really fun little essay to write, thanks for asking your question.

Edited by Tacitus on Dec 19th 2023 at 6:16:24 AM

Heck, one of the party members in Baldur's Gate III (which doesn't have actual alignments since those were phased out) is a warlock who gained power from a contract with a cambion from the Hells, and he's one of the most genuinely heroic and good-hearted characters in the game.

I mean, Wizards knows that players love being edgy Antihero Dark Is Not Evil types.

I was annoyed when I met Wyll because he basically was my Warlock character.

It's why I respecced him as a Bard.

Wyll isn't all that edgy though. Nor is he an antihero.

He's just a straight up heroic figure who wields infernal power.

He looks the part, especially after a certain event, but he's not that kind of guy.

Edited by M84 on Dec 20th 2023 at 2:03:06 AM

x3 That was an extremely helpful essay. Thank you! I'll keep it all in mind.

I mean if you are using evil power for good, you're basically Spawn.

No, Spawn was very much an antihero. Not because of his hellspawn powers, but because he was the kind of guy who ended up in Hell after dying. Al Simmons wasn't a good man in life, and he's painfully aware of that as Spawn. He wants to do better, but both his hell powers and his baggage from his past life make it harder.

Ghost Rider is a better comparison. Johnny Blaze even made that original deal with Mephisto to save his father, same as Wyll. It worked out better for Wyll than it did for poor Johnny though.

Wyll was also a wandering hero as the Blade of the Frontier, not unlike Johnny Blaze's nomadic lifestyle driving his bike around the USA's flyover country.

Edited by M84 on Dec 20th 2023 at 5:30:24 PM

inspired by minor arguments about the core races in Baldurs Gate 3 as well as a Dummied Out piece of line

is it possible for a mindflayer tadpole to infect a sufficiently organic Warforged? or perhaps create a specific tadpole to do so?

Mechanically and RAW, there's nothing preventing it from happening, since Warforged are classified as "humanoid", but from a common-sense, non-game-mechanics perspective, I don't see how it could reasonably work: regardless of whether the Warforged is made more of wood than stone or metal, there simply isn't an actual brain for the tadpole (or an adult illithid, if they want a meal instead of reproduction) to feed off of.

Conversely, a changeling should be suitable prey for the illithids, but with Monsters of the Multiverse changing them to the "fey" creature type, that means that RAW, neither adult illithid nor tadpole can eat their brain because they're no longer a humanoid.

Edited by TrashJack on Jan 4th 2024 at 7:59:10 AM

Yeah, a tadpole would just starve to death inside a Warforged's head.

And tadpoles lore-wise have never been restricted to humanoids. Brainstealer dragons are a thing. Though it's not confirmed if this is just the result of ceremorphosis or some other grisly hybridization scheme.

Illithids have even infected Beholders with tadpoles, leading to the creation of Mindwitnesses. And yes, they are every bit as creepy as you'd expect a cross between illithids and beholders to be.

Every time the Illithids encounter a new lifeform, one of the first things they try is to shove a tadpole in it and see what happens.

Edited by M84 on Jan 4th 2024 at 11:33:29 PM

A warforged would be nonviable, as would most golems, but I have to wonder about a flesh golem. It's animated by an elemental spirit, so losing its brain wouldn't affect it, but what would happen if an illithid tadpole ate that brain and occupied its skull? Would the preserved, repurposed brain be insufficient to trigger ceremorphosis, or would the tadpole start the transformation process and eventually end up warring with the elemental spirit for control of the golem's body? Would the illithidized flesh golem soon expire because its new body doesn't actually have a metabolism, or would it force its flesh to start living again?

I think the brain has to be an actual living one to feed a tadpole.

There are brain golems aren't there? Granted that might leave the tadpole a lil bit exposed but most skulls aren't that tough anyway.

Brain golems are already connected to illithids. They're essentially 'buds' of the elder brain, created for specific tasks and then they come back to rejoin the whole.

A tadpole normally needs a living humanoid host (and not even every humanoid race is viable) to become an illithid. Even the nonhumanoid examples I mentioned before weren't true illithids.

BG III does have as one of its possible party members a vampire spawn (meaning he's undead) infested with a tadpole. But the tadpoles in that game are rather unique since they're produced by an Elder Brain who has been enhanced by an incredibly powerful Netherese artifact the Crown of Karsus. As in the same Karsus who nearly usurped magic itself by replacing Mystra's Weave with his own Weave.

Edited by M84 on Jan 8th 2024 at 12:17:42 AM

huh, i wonder if that would be enough to infect... actually, in lore, what can't illithids normally infect?

look i'm just waiting for mod tools so i can be warforged ok

> what can't illithids normally infect?

things without a physical body for a start

It's funny cause vampirised Illithids are just feral.

That said, the person that created the Elder Brain Dragon should be locked up, if only due to the sheer cheese the combination brings to a high level encounter. Yes, only 1% of campaigns will probably get that far, but good lord, that's a TPK and a half for the unprepared.

The "half-illithid" template in the 3E Fiend Folio can be applied to any non-human humanoid, while the one in the 3E Underdark book can be applied to "any corporeal creature that is not a construct." Which rules-as-written means you could somehow illithidize an earth elemental or black pudding. I'd common-sense it to "anything with a brain for the tadpole to eat and a nervous system to fuse with."

In practice, ceremorophosis can be hit-and-miss, as not all host creatures are viable. Uchuulons (illithid-chuuls) are technically failed ceremorphs, as the tadpole dies while partially transforming the creature. Gnomes rarely work, and when they do might result in a short illithid that somehow retains the original being's personality, or produce a mentally-stunted and physically-deformed "squidling" that illithids normally euthanize. The non-standard illithids like the tzakandi (illithid-lizardfolk), mindwitness (illithid-beholder) and brainstealer dragon seem to be the exception more than the rule.

My guess is that it comes down to the question of "would this produce something more interesting than the base monster with a mind blast?"