Sugar Wiki on YMMV pages

As brought up on these two ATT queries, many YMMV pages include Sugar Wiki entries, such as Awesome Music and Funny Moments, if there aren't enough of them for a subpages. The current wiki policy forbids Sugar Wiki and Darth Wiki on main and YMMV pages, but this is not strictly enforced for Sugar Wiki. My opinion is that Sugar Wiki entries should be allowed on YMMV pages rather than creating subpages with only one or two examples, but not Darth since they lead to bile and edit warring.

I think the idea is that Sugar Wiki is for gushing- which is technically just as frowned upon as bashing is, and thus confined to a separate part of the wiki to keep it off the normal pages. So while I don't see any real issue with keeping them on YMMV pages, I can also see a good reason to move the wicks when someone spots them, to keep the more objective stuff on YMMV ^note  I don't have a better term here, but the basic thing I'm going for is that YMMV is for documenting how the fandom feels, so even if the stuff there is subjective, the facts are all objective ("fans feel this way", instead of "this is how good / bad the work is"). Gushing and bashing, however, are entirely about how individuals feel about the work's quality. and the actual statements of quality on Sugar and Darth.

...Actually, I just kind of convinced myself to the "move the wicks" side with this post: Keeps YMMV orderly and keeps the gushing/bashing on their own designated pages. Even if Sugar Wiki doesn't cause nearly as much problems, we still want to stay away from the gushing about how awesome something is.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 21st 2019 at 5:57:30 AM

First off I'll copy-paste what I said in the first thread:

While there is technically a difference between Sugar Wiki tropes and general YMMV tropes, I don't think said difference causes a big enough issue to warrant enforced separation of the pages. The only Sugar Wiki trope that I've seen cause notable issues is Awesome Music, and that's not an issue with gushing, but ZCE (presumably because its difficult for the layman to explain exactly why a piece of music sounds as good as it does).

There's a good reason to keep Darth Wiki off of YMMV pages, as it invites arguments, edit warring, and other issues that we don't want to deal with. Unless Sugar Wiki is inviting notable problems, then I don't see why it can't stay on YMMV alongside positive-leaning YMMV tropes like Ensemble Dark Horse, Awesome Ego, Even Better Sequel, etc.

Edited by whizzerd on Dec 21st 2019 at 1:06:16 PM

Eh, I consider Moments a different case altogether, as things like Nightmare Fuel are only where they are because of the thematic fit, and not because they're for bashing.

That said, while moments aren't necessarily used for outright gushing, there have been problems with people exaggerating things to make their favorite works seem...better, to other people, insisting that everything is super scary and funny and awesome and sad and heartwarming and, now, shocking. But, that's a problem with people getting too eager to discuss moments in their favorite works, not actual gushing, though gushing can occur here.

And of course, if it's decided that Moments also shouldn't be on YMMV pages, I won't care too much, as they're usually on their own pages anyway.

But for other Sugar Wiki stuff? Well, while I admit that we need to see some evidence that these things have been used for bringing gushing to YMMV, I can see it as a possibility and I'm just fine with the wicks being moved in favor of keeping the "main" pages as objective and informative as possible.

I must point out though that other "positive leaning" tropes are a bit different than the Sugar Wiki stuff. Sugar Wiki is about celebrating the works for being awesome, so anything marked Sugar Wiki is making a qualitative statement about the work itself, inherently claiming that the work is good. The other positive YMMV tropes are just documenting positive opinions fans have, just as negative leaning YMMV tropes are different from Darth Wiki bashing. A work having an Ensemble Dark Horse isn't inherently a "good" work; a work having The Scrappy isn't inherently "bad", but slap something like Awesome Music or Dethroning Moment of Suck there and you're implying the work is "awesome" or "sucky".

And I'm not saying having a Sugar Wiki example on a YMMV page is an inherently problematic thing, I'm just explaining how it could be a problem, something to consider in this discussion.

(This is of course ignoring the Sugar and Darth pages that are just joke pages, not actual tropes of a sort.)

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 21st 2019 at 8:24:53 AM

For what it's worth, Neutral Wiki now exists. Not sure where its creation was announced, but there you go.

IMO, I feel that any examples of these things should be kept to their own pages; in other words, if you saw a film and you thought it had a funny moment, put it only under Funny.Film. If it gets big enough, we get split the page off. It's what we do with Darth Wiki elements as well as And the Fandom Rejoiced.

If we formally go through with a full on Sugar Wiki wick removal effort, though, I'd like to start with the less ubiquitous elements, such as He Really Can Act and Superlative Dubbing.

Is something like 'this work has awesome music' really a substantial enough comment on the quality of the work as a whole, and also different enough from 'this work has a character that a lot of people like' to warrant separation?

I don't think that it's a worthwhile endeavour to try and excise subjective opinions from pages that are inherently about subjectivity, unless said subjective opinions are causing problems. Darth Wiki causes problems, so it's not allowed on YMMV. Broken Base and Base-Breaking Character caused problems, so now they have a waiting period. From the perspective of a reader, I don't find there to be a big difference between the way people write general YMMV entries and Sugar Wiki entries on YMMV pages (I didn't even realise He Really Can Act was Sugar Wiki and not a regular trope). From the perspective of a troper, that's thousands of wicks that'll need migrating, so I'd like a good reason to move them first.

Indeed. The Room is a terrible mess of a movie, but at least the music is... passable.