The Punisher Netflix series

In the case of gun control, the answer IS easy. There is no reason to not do it. Most European countries have some sort of gun control and guess what, it works. If for no other reason than that the majority of people going amok not having easy or immediate access to weapons, which really keeps the kill count down. It also makes it easier for the police to sniff out terror attacks before they happened, because legal buys are registered and illegal buys tend to draw attention. It doesn't work always, but you might, just might, notice that mass shooting have become a regular thing in the US.

What isn't quite as easy is the question of the usefulness of weapons on the street in general. But again, that is not what gun control is about. Gun control is simply about checking what kind of people buy weapons and how many weapons they buy. And the last part is particularly important. Did you know that even though the average gun ownership in the US is way higher than in other countries, the people who actually own the majority of those guns made up only 3% of the population? There are crazies stock piling weapons and the police can do nothing about it because there is no law against it.

Look, I’m for regulation. But too often the argument is strawmanned into “all the guns” (the vet) or no one gets a gun (the hypocritical politican). Neither extreme works and too often regulation is painted as the latter, which riles the former up to no end.

I think if nothing else, a firearm should be subject to the same control as a vehicle in registration and the use of training for things like concealed carry. And that is Karen.

This is what Karen should be. But that is not the side she is arguing for. She is put in opposition to the politician and at no point it is clarified that she is pro gun control. It is only clarified that she is totes for people being able to defend themselves. Which (and I can't repeat that often enough) is a common tactic of the gun lobby to pretend that there is even something to discuss when it comes to gun control. The only thing which should be discussed is how those regulations should look like, not if they are needed.

You're underestimating the divisiveness of the politics in the US, and just because it's commonly used as a false dichotomy doesn't mean it's not also a point that needs to be made. There *are* people in America who are far more afraid of their own government than they are of random gun violence in the street. And this is the show that has the CIA hunt down Gunner for knowing too much about their plot to murder Frank's family after an op they botched, so it's not like there's no precedent for that mistrust.

I agree with what you're saying about gun control in almost every respect but this: I don't think the show is against gun control. I think it's just aware that trying to have that conversation in earnest in a show where the main character is already at war with the CIA is going to undercut your point significantly either way.

edited 12th Dec '17 4:32:18 AM by Unsung

I am pro-gun control and think it's a ludicrous position otherwise (even as I realize this is often a rural versus urban issue) but I do think Karen Paige is a character they've established as entirely pro-vigilante violence and distrustful of authority plus prone to believing herself to be vulnerable.

If there's ever a character who should be pro-private gun ownership without sounding like a lunatic it's her.

And I am totally okay with her being pro gun-ownership. Again, what I am not okay with is the show acting as if gun control is about gun ownership.

edited 11th Dec '17 11:39:28 PM by Swanpride

Just seems like you're assuming the characters' viewpoints are those of the show itself, based on a few lines from one episode that really doesn't even end up giving a lot of time to the debate. It's not like this was a Very Special Episode, or anything. It's a Rashomon Episode, if anything, which pretty much requires there to be at least one self-serving character to weigh in, and it wasn't going to be Dinah or Karen, so...

edited 12th Dec '17 4:28:37 AM by Unsung

Now you are really grasping at straws. I already explained at length that the way the episode is set up as a whole is the problem. How the issue is portrayed, which character says what about it and how the plot itself plays out like a gun lobby video.

I'm not grasping at straws just because I think you're reading more into something than I believe was intended.

edited 12th Dec '17 4:29:38 AM by Unsung

Intention doesn't equal execution. I can only judge what I see.

Hypothetically speaking, what if the episode was somewhat propagandist in intent? What if it does take a definite stance on an issue that's both enduring and controversial, meaning a considerable portion of the audience would agree with it anyway? You don't see people complain about Star Trek presenting opinions with all the subtlety of a truck plowing through concrete blocks (thanks, Merkel). Nor was there any uproar regarding the MCU itself, when the very first guy to hold Stark responsible for his heavily armed shenanigans was not only forced to give him a medal later, but turned out to be a terrorist agent with ulterior motives.

Overall, the franchise has held a definite anti-government regulation stance since its inception, yet only now does the theme apparently touch a nerve, when it's applied to ordinary weapons rather than shoulder-mounted miniguns. What's with the double standard here? I argued before that the precedent set in the films would mean that anyone could just load up on their favorite big bore bear busters at the Walmart sporting goods section, and so become the great and noble Gun-Man, and none of the established heroes would have a leg to stand on arguing against it. Well, Gun-Man exists, and he's American. And if his presence starts to chill you after a moment's consideration, in turn I might wonder why everything beforehand, somehow, did not.

edited 12th Dec '17 4:22:58 AM by indiana404

Interpretation =/= execution, either. All we've got to base this on is something that's mostly relegated to some side dialogue, between two guest stars, in a room that later explodes. Afterwards the episode dispenses with even that small portion of the debate, and I just don't see it as landing very firmly on either side. And what are we talking about when it comes to whether or not the show was anti-gun control, if not intent?

Finally finished it. Overall, I think it's a decent series. I'd put Jessica Jones above it but I feel it ties with Luke Cage for me which I also liked. The acting is pretty great on all fronts, especially Jon Bernthal. It has its flaws like any show, this one being some pacing issues and the gun control episodes being a bit.. iffy. But overall, great.

One thing I'd like to know is, why was Frank okay with telling Curtis he was alive but not telling Billy?

edited 12th Dec '17 5:36:29 AM by windleopard

I'm thinking because Frank thought he'd need a medic and wanted to limit anyone else's exposure after he 'died'. Maybe he didn't want to risk wrecking the great new life Billy had built up for himself.

I already explained at length why the debate is deeply dishonest, based on what scenes and argument within the episode. So let's not do this again and agree to disagree.

For the record, I still like the show overall, I am just p... about this one episode and I feel that overall it could have been outstanding but kept pulling its punches. Which is why I feel that Jessica Jones is still the best of the bunch, because that was the one show which went there and told people some very uncomfortable truth. And maybe finally taught men why it is creepy to tell a women to smile.

Because Billy was actually involved in what was going on while Curtis wasn't. It was unlikely that Curtis would end up in the crossfire. Plus, Billy was living his dreams.

edited 12th Dec '17 6:02:44 AM by Swanpride

But potentially wrecking Curtis' life was a-ok, I guess[tongue]

... That's actually a pretty good reason to let him know. The only reason it would have ended badly is if Billy ended up betraying him. Yeah he did, but Frank didn't know he would and that wasn't the reason he gave for not telling him?

I'm sure Frank thought the same thing about his wife and kids once.

I repeat, just because Curtis isn't living a life of fast cars, fancy clothes and sexy women doesn't mean he won't end up in danger due to association with Frank.

You're not wrong about the risk to Curtis, and I doubt Frank went to see him entirely willingly, but Curtis was a combat medic, and Billy's not. Meanwhile, if the conspiracy killed Frank's family because of his connection to Operation: Cerberus, there was every chance they might kill Billy if Frank told him about it. They went after Gunner as soon as they thought Frank might try and track him down.

Plus I kind of wonder... Curtis might have a day job, but the military is still clearly his whole life, with the support group now the closest he can still get to continuing to serve; he was injured out, rather than leaving by choice. Matter of fact, I'm willing to bet Curtis was happier to see Frank than the other way around.

edited 12th Dec '17 9:03:19 AM by Unsung

Mind you, Curtis gets drawn in because one of his peeps goes off the rails completely due to something unrelated to Castle.

Which is good.

Looks like we're getting a second season folks

Sweet. Not surprised the show did well enough, hell, Iron Fist did.

The earliest it will come out is mid to late 2019. And it will probably be the lead-in to the second Defenders crossover.

So, are we getting the Russian next season? Seeing as he’s a huge fan of superheroes and that makes a lot of sense in the MCU, he would add a nice meta element to the insanity.

Only if it leads to another overly-long, slapstick-y fight scene.

I'm glad we get a second Season before the era of Marvel on Netflix will end.

Here's how you do the Russian: one episode only, completely different tone from the rest of the season, knockdown, drag-out fight in real time in a single location with the Russian as an unheralded Giant Space Flea from Nowhere whose connection to the main plot of the rest of the season is only explained after the fact.

Unless they actually do Welcome Back, Frank verbatim, I mean.

edited 13th Dec '17 9:52:52 AM by Unsung