Marvel's Iron Fist

Jessica is a drunken mess however, I don't think the thought would even occur her. She's not exactly a master strategist.

Rewatching that hallway elevator fight again...the one guy Joy punches is the same guy who punches her in the face, I'm 99% sure.

I think that's a wonderful little touch.

I am surprised that you can identify anyone in it....

Yeah, I am really frustrated about the fight scenes. Which might be odd, since I defend the show so much, but the editing really frustrates me. It pulled the show down at least one full point quality-wise, if not more.

Is it possible you should just up the brightness on your viewing screen (I realize that sounds stupidly technical but I was gonna say "TV" and then realized you might not watch it on a TV)?

I dunno, that fight's not the best edited thing I've ever seen (if pressed to say what is, I'd probably say Birdman) but I never felt confused about what was happening or where the combatants were or what they were doing. It all seemed coherent enough to me.

Oh, I have no problem to see where Danny and Joy are, but all those other fighters, who are dressed more or less the same and are not in focus the whole time, I certainly can't tell them apart, especially not with all the red light.

Yeah but that's not their fault. I mean, they all have distinct appearances. But its mostly in their faces-they have similar clothes, similar hair styles, there are no big height or weight differences.

But...well put it this way. I'm 28 years old. There are lots of factors that people see (without even thinking about it) that help them gauge a person's age. I don't tick off a lot of those boxes so as recently as today I had somebody ask me if I was 21 or not.

Since I know where to look (my facial wrinkles, the gray hairs at my temples, and so on) my age is super apparent to me. But if you don't know where to look...well you can be forgiven for thinking a bunch of identically dressed Chinese guys with mostly the same hair cut look the same.

As I admitted multiple times before, I have difficulties to tell faces apart. Not in a being faceblind thing, I am just not good with remembering all those details in faces and mostly pay more attention to the obvious stuff, like hair colour aso. If you then have a group fight which is shown from so many different camera angles that it becomes to confusing and then end ups in a red room with a split screen doesn't help (and I still don't get the point of that one, it is a freaking elevator, a split sceen is useful if you want to show two events happening at the same time at different places, but Danny and Joy are at the same place, it would be way easier to see what each of them do without it)

The split screen is because Joy and Danny are doing something at the exact same time, and to give each moment its due.

Joy punches a guy when Danny is doing some kicking, and she's behind him, so they split the screen to see each moment.

Was it unnecessary? Sure. But then so was the wipe-transition, and I enjoyed that simply because its rare to see a wipe outside of Star Wars.

I do like the spit screens in the fight and some of the more stylized edits like the side swipe. I find them cool, and stylistic. It was also a nice attempt to put a unique fingerprint on Iron Fist compared to the others. However, I think they need to be used deftly, and they are hard to do. Once again, good idea, somewhat shaky execution.

Done now. Those first three episodes, man... It's like they had three decent ideas for plots, but they go nowhere, and then they just abruptly end. Danny's on the street? Sounds interesting, maybe that'll give him (and us) a unique perspective on the plight of the homelesss— nope, the one other homeless guy is killed off and Danny gets carted off to a mental hospital. Well, maybe this ties into a larger discussion about mental illness and the stigma the mentally ill face— nope, it's more of a cut-rate Arkham Asylum, waking up to a guy impersonating a doctor and threatening him with a fork, and then all of a sudden they're friends when the bullies of the ward show up, just to make it as cliche as possible. Alright, but now that Danny's out of the hospital, here's Hogarth, surely we're finally going to get to the meat of the corporate intrigue everyone's been talking about, they've been building up the Meachums a lot, so this is probably going to be the bulk of the season apart from the kung f— wait, that's it? Harold just lets him back in and it's over? What do you mean Jeri Hogarth's barely even in the show for the rest of the season?

This definitely does feel like the later seasons of Dexter, in that they start one plotline, and just as it's getting good, they drive it over a cliff and start a new one, except here they did it three times in the first three episodes. Not promising.

But once you get over the hump of the first five episodes (I can barely remember what happened in four and five), the kung fu stuff kicks in, and Harold and Ward's side-story actually becomes much more interesting and personal, as opposed to the generic cartoon villains they were earlier in the season. Madame Gao shows up and just steals the show, once again Claire proves why she's the heart of the team and really the whole Netflix franchise, and the Hand are, if not wholly redeemed, at least given a personality, with lots of fun minibosses and an entertaining sidetrack with Bakuto and Colleen's not-very-surprising (but reasonably well-executed) twist allegiance to the the right Hand which doesn't know what the left is doing. Good enough.

I'll say this for it, the final episode did at least have its share of memorable scenes. Swinging in and smashing through the window fist first, blowing up the whole room with a sonic floor-punch, those were both pretty sweet. Making Harold the final boss was the right move, one that I wouldn't have been convinced this show would have the good judgment to make early in the going. Ward and Danny make up and it's surprisingly believable, a testament to Tom Pelphrey's performance as much as anything else. Hogarth comes back (finally) and gets in at least one good dig before the season is out. And Claire bought a nut cart and blew it up. Nice.

The action scenes are occasionally clever but Finn Jones isn't the actor or fighter than Charlie Cox is (but he does get better, and his opponents do sometimes make up for it, Bakuto in particular being impressively athletic, along with Drunken Master Lewis Tan/Zhou Cheng and zany hitman Scythe). Some of the greenscreen effects and location scenes really wore on my suspension of disbelief— you couldn't have staged those a little better, in 2017? Seriously, did your props department walk out on the first day of production or something?

So...yeah. This is still back of the pack for me— they really put their growing pains up onscreen and they never fully got my full buy-in because of it, and nobody in it is anywhere near as good as the standouts of the other three series. Then again, if it weren't in such esteemed company I probably would've given it more of a benefit of the doubt, and would've given it more time to find its feet. Though while the other shows have the occasional filler episode or filler arc, they did benefit from spreading those out. All four shows are a bit slow to get moving, but the other three at least start strong, one way or another, establishing a definite sense of place and character even in the less action-y JJ and Luke Cage.

edited 23rd Mar '17 2:51:55 AM by Unsung

You might want to put your remarks about the finale under spoiler tags. Not everyone is quite as far yet.

I know that this is an unpopular opinion, but I always felt that Charlie Cox is more serviceable than anything else. I actually think that the only reason why Daredevil is likable in the first season at all is because the kid-actor does a way better job conveying emotions than Charlie Cox is. And the fighting...yeah, that is mostly the stunt double and a low of it is more brawling. Don't get me wrong, the hallway fight is all kinds of amazing, but would they have given the same fight to Iron Fist, I don't think that people were that pleased with it. For someone with martial arts training, Matt is really bad in avoiding punches.

Random observations: Upon rewatch I realized that they established the Nut card early on. In the very first episode Danny seemingly randomly talks to the nut seller before entering the building. The seasons did this a lot, small things or detail which are there in the background or casually mentioned and then suddenly become relevant.

edited 23rd Mar '17 1:14:47 AM by Swanpride

You got it.

Diff'rent strokes— I think Charlie Cox puts on a really great performance of someone who's constantly holding back, and he impressed me with his ability to hold the screen right from that first scene, mostly a monologue, between him and Father Lantom in the confession booth. Danny's speech doesn't really land for me in the same way, possibly because the character doesn't seem like he'd be the type to speak at length. Which isn't a problem, but when he gets a similarly long scene, recounting the events of the crash and his years in K'un-Lun, it just doesn't feel right. Matt is a thinker, a brooder, whereas the whole root of Danny's inadequacies as the Iron Fist come about because he's never properly processed the lingering emotions from his childhood drama— that arrested development that permeates the character right from our first moments we see him.

edited 23rd Mar '17 2:56:29 AM by Unsung

It's odd how Matt, and Danny are foils. Matt contains a lot of self-knowledge, and is cripplingly broody, and introspective over being Daredevil. This makes him closed off. Danny lacks this sort of introspective wisdom, yet he is more open to others and making connections.

I'm on the fifth episode where for the flashback that explains how Danny would even begin to know anything about running a major business, especially since he barely knows how to function in the real world.

I finished the season yesterday. For me, it's the worst of the Defenders shows by far. After three main characters I liked, this show served up a whiny, temper tantrum-prone, irresponsible man child with none of the discipline, concentration, or patience you'd expect from someone who was raised by a group of strict warrior monks and who became their greatest warrior. In particular, Danny's idiotic early attempts to prove his identity made the show borderline unwatchable until Jeri arrived to serve as his brain. There were a notable number of instances where the people criticizing Danny's actions made the most sense (Ward and Joy telling him not to make potentially catastrophic business decisions without due consideration, Davos explaining how Danny was failing in his duty, Gao analyzing Danny's motives), and it's hard to tell if they were cases of Strawman Has a Point or if Danny was meant to come across as that badly.

edited 23rd Mar '17 7:59:53 PM by Bionicman

It is meant to show that issues like this are complicated and that Danny might mean well, but he doesn't really have a firm grasp on everything.

I'm twelve episodes in and I don't see what the fuss is about. Certainly not as stellar as the other Defenders titles, especially off the heels of the surprisingly good Luke Cage, but still good. From best to least, I personally rank Season 1 of Daredevil and Jessica Jones at the top, followed by the first half of Season 2 of Daredevil, then Luke Cage, and then Iron Fist is probably on par with the second half of DD Season 2 (I prefer the Punisher arc to the Elektra/Hand arc, I dunno why)

I think there's a few pacing issues, and the fight scenes aren't nearly as cool as they could be, and the whole mythos of the Iron Fist power seems sadly condensed to offscreen backstory. There's a lot of telling and less showing, that's probably the most glaring problem the show as a whole has to me.

I like that the Hand has more personality with its Quirky Miniboss Squad and inner politics. Harold might be up there with Fisk and Kilgrave as another great Netflix villain for me, though he could've been used more and I might have preferred it if he were more loyal to the Hand. Every time he's on screen all I can think is what a great Norman Osborn the actor would make.

Overall it has a pretty slow and undecisive first half and a decent second half with a few standout awesome moments. I imagine that just like his comics counterpart, Iron Fist will really come into his own when paired up with Luke Cage and the other "Defenders."

Why do people fight for The Hand so devotedly, especially Gao's faction? "Sworn defender"? What kind of Lawful Evil is that?

And why is she called Madam Gao?

I believe it's actually Madame Gao (so French for Mrs), but Colleen's "Why not Mrs Gao? Or Linda Gao? So what, does she run the Best Little Whorehouse in the Hand?" was one of my favourite lines from the show.

Maybe i would've liked this show better if some of the comic elements were handled a little better. In the early season, some things are so goofy that I get the impression they were actually written as jokes, but they're not played that way in the series proper.

That's like asking why people fight so devotedly to any extreme faction.

As for Madame Gao, who's to say she's not French? Or that its simply, you know, an affectation?

@Madam Gao: Because it has a nice ring to it, that's why. That's reason enough.

It could just be an affectation, sure. But Gao is hundreds of years old and speaks 'all' languages, if we take her at her word. There were periods when parts of China were under French colonial rule, or maybe she picked it up in France— there's no reason that New York has to be the start and end of her travels abroad.

Or that.

edited 24th Mar '17 7:23:55 PM by Unsung

I always get the sense Madam Gao is just an alias that stuck.

Considering Madam Gao's tendency to run drug-smuggling operations, I would not be surprised if she was involved in the Second Opium War, where she, as a prolific opium (among other more bizarre drugs) trader, supported the French troops and in return they called her "Madame" Gao. And then it just stuck.

An alternate explanation is that apparently, in Singapore, women that keep their maiden names after marriage are addressed as "Madam". Maybe Gao chose to be called this.

Also: people fight for the Hand because the marvel universe is full of ancient organizations functioning on ancient feudal codes. IF in particular runs on this concept, the idea that these inherited oaths of loyalty and protection go on for millenia. Basically every character in IF is member of an ancient tradition or inheritor of a legacy. Sins of Our Fathers is a big aspect.

As Stick explains, the Hand was a conglomerate of psychotic magic overlords that formed itself at some point. And the oaths they sworn that day just kept on going until this very day.

The Hand reminds me of how they developed HYDRA, an organization composed of several factions run by completely different people with completely different goals, motivations and resources, loosely tied by a common allegiance.

Though Gao being Hand is almost certainly a case of Arc Welding.

Plus a lot of mind games and gaslighting, brainwashing and zombification, blackmail and intimidation, and plain old tough negotiation. Note that Fisk's seed money seems to have come from the Hand— they're the only people he's afraid of, and Gao in particular. Looking at Fisk and Harold Meachum, the Hand seem fond of giving their 'clients' just enough rope to hang themselves with— give them just enough of what they want or need to keep them in their power.

I'm not very familiar with the source material. Are people still thinking Gao is Crane Mother herself, or was that Jossed by how she acts here? I get the impression that she's using the Hand for her own ends, that there's still some larger game she has in mind that other Hand leaders like Bakuto aren't entirely aware of. She almost seems to be mentoring Danny in some way— not a very nice way, but still.

edited 24th Mar '17 8:17:13 PM by Unsung