NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Bump for discussion
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World's Toughest Milkman
Well...I do like the idea of a crowd bows trope, but this seems like a terrible name for such a trope.
Of course, the fact that it's a character-named trope is almost certainly a big contributing factor to the misuse. Those are almost always a mess. Basically, the name is pretty bad no matter how you cut it.
I wish you'd found a clearer pattern in the misuse, though. I can maybe see a couple of possible ways forward, but I'm not entirely sure which, if any, is best.
1. We can go with the original intent, and maybe rename or not, and do a cleanup, and see how long it lasts, and (importantly) send the missing supertrope to TLP; or
2. We can simply make this the missing supertrope. A bit risky, and virtually demands a rename, but not terrible; or
3. We can spend more time to see if we can figure out what people think this is, and (again) send the missing supertrope to TLP. This might help avoid the rename, but might just be asking for more trouble down the road.
I'm not sure which I prefer. But I think I'm leaning towards something that involves a rename. :)
edited 22nd Dec '16 8:23:04 PM by Xtifr
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
The "Frodo" figure is supposed to be an underdog/everyman figure in-universe to other people at large, except for someone who knows him. That someone either bows himself to "Frodo" and/or orders others to do so, usually while saying why this figure needs bowing.
That's what I can get at least, by the context of the movie.
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NaNo 4328 / 50,000
And the wicks have collected over 50% misuse for examples that don't follow your definition. (Not sure if you're thinking Trope Namer definition or Crowd definition, so 92% or 65%)
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No, the other one.
I think it seems like two different tropes. Kneeling before someone you're expected to kneel before, and when a higher ranked character kneels before a lower ranked character doesn't sound like the same thing to me.
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NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Pledging your service to someone of higher rank and causing a large crowd to genuflect I think are also different tropes, even if they occasionally overlap. I think the best solution may be to start up several TLP drafts and kill this page; leave the drafts to fly or fail on their own.
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World's Toughest Milkman
Main/KneelBeforeFrodo found in: 123 articles, excluding discussions.
Since January 1, 2012 this article has brought 1,065 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.
That level of inbounds means we really should find a valid redirect target if nothing else. Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
I see two tropes as well. The first, which the name applies to, is when a crowd bows to a hero/protagonist who is an underdog. The Underdog qualifier is important because it is a crowd bowing to someone they wouldn't bow to normally. The second, when royalty/power bows to the underdog/someone lesser, seems like a trope in itself. What I'm not sure about, is whether the trope is flexible enough to allow both?
Honestly, I wouldn't be against merging the two into one page and making them sub-types rather than separate tropes.
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It's because for the Trope Namer case, both the royal (Aragorn) and the crowd bow to Frodo.
If the royal bows and the crowd doesn't, it's because he knows the "Frodo" is a figure worth bowing to while the crowd doesn't believe neither the royal or the "Frodo". The royal might do so in an attempt to convince the crowd but failed in the process.
If the crowd bows and the royal doesn't, it's because the crowd praise the "Frodo" more than the royal. Or the royal commanded them to, but the royal himself believes he's still above "Frodo".
If both bow to "Frodo", then it's simple mass-respect.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The current definition also covers cases of Prince and Pauper plots where said prince reveal themselves to the crowd, prompting them to genuflect in respect.
edited 30th Dec '16 8:34:51 AM by crazysamaritan
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Oversized Garden Ornament
"If both bow to "Frodo", then it's simple mass-respect."
That's true if both the royal and the crowd do it for the same reason: "Everybody, including the king, bow to Frodo because he saved the world".
But I think it's a different situation if first the king bows to the underdog, and this makes the crowd realize "Frodo" is worthy of respect, and then the crowd bows. That's tropeworthy in itself, I think.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Sure, but that's less than 9 wicks out of 116.
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The trope description is Example As Thesis, using two examples simultaneously. That's sometimes difficult to read, but essentially it defines the trope to "The Reveal" + "a crowd bows". There's no reason given why The Reveal makes this trope distinct from a bowing crowd. Presumably, whoever wrote the initial trope considered a crowd of bowing people to be People Sit On Chairs, but I will disagree.
The examples have been collecting situations where "everybody bows", and context for why they bow are included. I think that concept is a much stronger trope than the current definition. "Everyone bows to [person] because [awesome thing]" is more consistent with other tropes we already have. It becomes the supertrope to Awesome Moment of Crowning, and a character demanding Kneel Before Zod is Invoking this.
Historical note: The ykttw draft was written specifically for situations in which royalty (usually King) bowed to someone of lesser station, provoking everyone else to also bow to the character. JenBurdoo proposed expanding the trope to any "mass kneel" instead. The description incorporated some of their points, and I'm arguing that we should incorporate that change as well.
Wick Check: Sandbox.Kneel Before Frodo
(Total examples: 116), some examples overlap types
N: 9
ZCE: 32
King: 33
Crowd: 46
Pledge: 35
After checking every linked page (about 50 examples on-page, and only over 100 linked pages), I'm no longer certain that just expanding this trope to "any time a crowd bows" would sufficiently solve the misuse. Over half of the examples lack enough details to claim there's more than one or two people bowing at all. Game of Thrones seems to be responsible for many people treating this as Awesome Moment of Crowning without a crown. It's artificially inflated by being included as a character trope. We may be able to salvage this trope name for "a king/superior debases themselves to an inferior", but there's still significant shoehorns for "this person bows/isbowedto".
edited 7th Nov '16 11:05:50 AM by crazysamaritan
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