Needs Help: Stylish Action

The name didn't latched to anything.

Sub-genre has existed for 15 years before whoever that was made up that name and put a stake on it as if they invented it.

The actual communities who actually play these games do NOT call them by these names. The actual developers who create these games do NOT call them by these names.

They've been calling them "stylish action", "cuhrayzee", just "action games" and so on. The only community who keeps up this name as if it is a thing is here and here only.

It is not about who "invented" the name first.

Call it "wonderpuffin" for all i care. At least it is not as counter-productive and confusing unlike whatever you named this article.

Godawful name is only part of the problems — the other two problems are that you have no definition whatsoever and huge chunk of examples listed there do not fit into your own criteria.

This article should not exist.

edited 22nd Mar '17 7:47:28 AM by Azek

Perhaps you should reread this thread's first post. Much of why Spectacle Fighter was placed in the Trope Repair Shop was because the original genre description was inadequate and led to many games being added to it that do not fit the genre.

To be fair I do agree with Azek, my comments on the trope discussion page (before I created this thread), my first post on this thread and a couple of my comments on this very thread did mention my request for a rename.

Spectacle Fighter is arguably one of the worst names for this genre, it was created after others names have been used, its creation spawn in a simple review and in that said review, the description created by Yahtzee wasn't really the truth, one of the criteria he did when he coined Spectacle Fighter was, and I quote: "Games in which most of the standard baddies are about as effectual as a panda's love spuds", which isn't really the case, those games he mentioned mostly have more effectual enemies than the average, and I'm talking about the standard ones

Not to mention Spectacle Fighter isn't even the more well know name for this genre, Stylish Action is, it has a vastly superior number o results on google and was used years before the Mad World Review, I think its pretty safe to assume this should be the name of the topic

On a off topic: Cuhrayzee is actually my favorite name due to how bad it is, its a batshit insane name with close to zero ways for someone to misinterpret the genre based on the name, however it is less know and more recent, so I wouldn't place this a a suggestion, its only my personal favorite

On my first post I did put more emphases on trying to get a decent description on the trope and fixing the examples, because I think the name isn't as important as fixing the page itself, although I really do hope we change the name and will try to make it happen

^ I think renaming it Stylish Action would make it seem more like the proper genre it is instead of suffering from Trope Namer Syndrome.

Perhaps you should read my and Christian's original discussion on this very subject in article's discussion.

The points i presented haven't changed since:

1. Spectacle fighter is a bad name and i'd rather see it deleted completely, rather see it under this non-descriptive and misguided name.

2. It is not actually used by the community. By the community i mean active players and researchers who do podcasts, tutorials about intricacies of the games' systems and combo videos in various tournaments (v-style tournament is on it's 9th installment):

http://youtu.be/L7E88t7n-As

http://youtu.be/NOVVmm4KOm4

http://youtu.be/YALYaSVjyBU

http://youtu.be/1K_fABSqeAI

http://youtu.be/28lDr9Y0Df4

3. It is way more obscure than older established names for the sub-genre.

4. The definition is so actively bad you can both put anything in and cut anything out of the examples if you go according by it.

Nothing really changed since 2015, in fact it got worse since the definition got even more amorphous and wordy and numbers of examples that have no business begin here have only quadrupled.

edited 22nd Mar '17 7:32:43 PM by Azek

So here is the list of the things we should do:

Rename the trope to Stylish Action, since this is a arguably better name, more known and older than what we are using now

Remove basically 90% of all the games on the list since they don't fit anyway, remove the wrong wicks(?), and just letting Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, God Hand, etc on the list

Try to come up with improvements to the changes TheOrbOfConfusion already made on the trope page?

are you okay with this Azek ?

Sure.

I've removed all of the offending examples that I'm familiar with and tweaked the description as best I can. This is what's left:

• Look over the remaining examples to cut any video games that don't fit the new definition.
• Rename the page to "Stylish Action" and fix the description with the updated name once that's done.
• Make "Spectacle Fighter" a redirect to "Stylish Action", or do a wick check and update the pages that link here.

I was removing some of the more batshit insane wicks and goddamn, people thought Spectacle Fighter meant any game with either flash moves or a combo, it was even worse than I thought

There's still a lot of games on the list that shouldn't be there, frankly I was thinking about removing every single game that isn't considered a Stylish Action by the "competitive" community, and see if other people try to re-add some of insane exemples, basically trying to make a reboot on the page and see if the new description and the games put on there fix the issue of the page being misused, but that might be a dumb move, I dunno

Also is there any way to kinda force people to discuss a game first on the discussion page before adding it to the page? Like "Please, due to the previous misuses make a discussion to see if the game is really a Stylish Action before putting on the page"

So.... how do we change the page name? Should we ask for the change now or wait a couple of days?

edited 24th Mar '17 7:54:19 AM by ChristianWS

Changing it sooner would be better. The page examples have been cut to include only the most well-known games.

As for debating whether or not a game's stylish action, I've given the games that are left some brief descriptions to demonstrate what kind of game fits the genre as well as to make it easier picking out games that don't fit.

edited 24th Mar '17 2:30:06 PM by TheOrbOfConfusion

I've cleaned the list more to basically includes only the games that I'm 200.00% sure that are stylish actions and are treated as such by the hardcore community, I also changed a line on the description to put more emphasis on the combat and mechanics rather than raw difficulty, and the vanquish description, feel free to correct any grammar mistake I made, as I said English isn't my native language and this was the reason I didn't contribute as much to actually writing anything big

So yeah.... how do we change the name?Just call a mod?

Consensus appears to be that the page should be renamed Stylish Action and more effort should be made in the future to ensure that misidentified examples don't get as out of hand as they were previously.

It isn't a clear consensus, looking back through the thread there's only been 5 tropers for the rename (and really, not like they were explicitly +1'ing a rename), and 2 against. Even then, this has 50 wicks and a healthy amount of inbounds(4,087), a single prop crowner for a rename should be a minimum.

The trope definition also seemed to be in flux without consensus. Last I saw, we have some tropers saying Spectacle Fighter should be only a core definition, others saying it should have a set of specific criteria, and at least one saying it shouldn't exist at all. There's even still a discussion whether it's a genre, subgenre, or trope. We should have some clear options on the table for a multi prop before taking action.

edited 24th Mar '17 8:18:40 PM by pokedude10

I will admit that TheOrbOfConfusion did put the cart before the horse(?) and already changed the page and the game listed on it before we reached a conclusion, I will admit that I removed 15 wicks, but in my defense I will say that they would have to be removed anyway, things like Kirby, Batman, and some weird trivia about Arkham Knight and DMC 4:SE being rivals(!) etc... Surprisingly I've found that most of the batshit insane exemples are made by the two tropers, it was clear to me that those two thought that "Spectacle Fighter" meant games with flashy animation or games with more than 1 attack animation with a finishing blow on certain bosses, both of which doesn't make any sense and personally I don't think are worth of being a trope

I don't think there was even a doubt that this thing is a genre/sub-genre(does it really makes any difference if its a genre rather than sub-genre? Besides having to put "sub" every time), only one person questioned if this should be a trope rather than a genre but afterwards everyone forgot and proceeded as if it was a genre, not to mention that outside of this wiki it is treated as a genre/sub-genre

There's nothing wrong with cleaning up shoehorned wicks, it's just good practice to wait until there's a clear conclusion on TRS before fixing them. We wait for an agreed plan because misuse may end up expanding the core definition to include the misused wicks. Tropes Are Flexible after all.

Now, I'm not saying that the wicks you cleaned up are good examples and the definition should be expanded, but generally the possibility of expanding or changing the definition is considered before changing wicks.

As for the genre/subgenre/trope discussion, just because the topic moved on, doesn't mean it had reached a conclusion. Personally, having it be a subgenre allows for the best growth because it could overlap with multiple genres.

As for continuing with page edits, my suggestion would be to create Sandbox.Spectacle Fighter, copy over the original page, and work on creating a revised description. That way the live page isn't affected and the thread can see the proposed definition and example changes.

So we can cement an action plan, I'll move for a multi-prop crowner. A multi-prop can have multiple options, some of which, such as renaming, can win at the same time. Here are the core options if I remember correctly:

• Define Spectacle Fighter to mean "Stylized, fast-paced action games with deep combat mechanics."
• Define Spectacle Fighter to mean "Stylized, fast-paced, action games with deep combat mechanics." + additional criteria (skill ceiling, third-person, skill levels, etc.)
• Rename Spectacle Fighter (To be decided by Name Crowner)
• Clean up misuse with existing description
• Do nothing.

edited 25th Mar '17 1:59:20 PM by pokedude10

I'm fine with second option.

And yeah, it needs to be changed back to how it was first so it can be sandboxed.

And Orb of Confusion, please don't jump the gun again. I'm trying to make it so we can copy it into the sandbox, but you changed so much across multiple edits it's hard to do so.

I would go with option 1, one of the games that has been seen as an originator to the genre is Viewtiful Joe a 2D game. The director Hideki Kamiya worked on Bayonetta and Devil May Cry and such.

Alright, created a page action here. Hollering for a hook. Only edit I made to the options was adding to revert changes made if "Do nothing" wins.

I think that the second and third options together would solve most of the problems, but the "criteria" are more of just "common characteristics" and shouldn't be viewed as required – the core requirements of a stylish action game are in the description, not the list, and are pretty general.

My apologies for jumping the gun.

I agree, they should just be commonly seen parts, not requirements. However, I added it to the crowner because I wanted to accurately represent the discussions and different points.

edited 28th Mar '17 9:37:26 AM by pokedude10

I am still against renaming though its the preexisting term that even developers, reviewers such as Total Biscuit and the service steam are using it. Its like Rogue Like in that respect.

However Option 2 could work with that change.

Potentially we could just make the over arching genre "Character Action Game" to stop misuse.

edited 28th Mar '17 10:25:54 AM by Memers

I still don't think the "additional criteria" bit works for a genre. It works for narrowly and strictly defined tropes, but for genres, which are more loose and more about the themes, feel, and internal familiarity rather than anything from a checklist, not really. I think they can only ever work for very generic and basic requirements (like how a Bullet Hell requires a hell of a lot of bullets).

edited 28th Mar '17 1:11:10 PM by AnotherDuck