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PhilosopherStones Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm from The North (lots of planets have them) Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Anyways Here's Darude Sandstorm
#226: Mar 24th 2018 at 3:59:27 PM

Yeah but any kind of regulation kind of negates the whole 'philosophy' around homeschooling, that philosophy on the whole being "I do not trust to government with my child's education". Once the government steps in, homeschooling ceases being homeschooling on a fundamental level.

As it has been pointed out in this thread it would be way more practical and cost effective to just fold these children into the public system.

I am not for more regulation of homeschools. I am for the abolishment of homeschools. I implore any parents who homeschool their children to stop it immediately and seek out proper education.

GIVE ME YOUR FACE
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#227: Mar 24th 2018 at 4:04:47 PM

Seems a bit generalizing to insinuate that "I don't trust the government" is the main philosophy of homeschooling.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#228: Mar 25th 2018 at 1:17:25 AM

Also to assume that you know what the philosophy behind homeschooling is better than I do, and I support regulations.

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#229: Mar 25th 2018 at 2:54:25 AM

[up][up] The main philosophy of homeschooling is that parents don't trust the government to take care of their child, whether it's because they think it doesn't have the means or because they don't like some of the subjects public schools teach and want to insulate the child from those matters.

[up] A bit condescending to think only people who were homeschooled truly understand it. I don't need to live in a country with the death penalty or work as an executioner to properly debate its merits.

edited 25th Mar '18 2:56:36 AM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#230: Apr 3rd 2018 at 3:43:33 PM

Can anyone explain the whole "college is becoming a business" thing?

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#231: Apr 3rd 2018 at 8:58:12 PM

It's increasingly seen as necessary to get entry-level positions in many jobs, students are acquiring massive debt to get a degree, the availability of so much debt encourages higher tuition and profiteering off an increasingly non-optional component of education.

Basically, the more it's needed and the more programs are created to fund tertiary education, the more those who charge for it are going to focus on squeezing money out.

On the flip side, with so many people studying because all that really matters is having the degree, students are more focused on getting value for money and actual education—who cares if it's primarily a research institute when you're there for other reasons and will never touch that portion of the place's work? Not a good situation for good researchers but terrible lecturers (conversely, there's no reward for being a good tutor)

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#232: Apr 4th 2018 at 1:22:57 AM

[up] That is actually really sad. College should not have to be like that.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#233: Apr 4th 2018 at 1:27:49 AM

This also has the effect of discouraging people from pursuing "useless" degrees like art, literature, history...

edited 4th Apr '18 1:27:57 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#234: Apr 4th 2018 at 2:36:37 PM

I displayed an interest in humanities but my dad shot that idea down seeing how it doesn't pay any money compared to being a doctor or lawyer. Maybe I should had continued on my path to being a pediatrician back when I was eighteen. I would had been financially secured at least....

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#235: Apr 5th 2018 at 1:02:23 AM

From my experience, colleges in the US are becoming more like a business. Colleges in Europe are still very focused on education and don’t have any of that bullcrap like Greek life or College Football. Plus they’re free!

edited 5th Apr '18 1:02:37 AM by Xopher001

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#236: Apr 5th 2018 at 1:05:13 AM

[up]

Colleges in Europe are still very focused on education and don’t have any of that bullcrap like Greek life

That reminds me, a while back I posted an article on frats and how they enable abuse, with occasionally lethal consequences.

Death at a Penn State Fraternity

edited 5th Apr '18 1:06:53 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#237: Apr 10th 2018 at 11:38:42 PM

[up] I never been to fraternity and I never want to go to one now.

Maybe I guess I better move to Europe but maybe that might not be a good idea. Still, it sucks that school has become a business and not an institution.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#238: Apr 11th 2018 at 1:23:04 AM

Remember though, while the ideal of having schools as regulated institutions is understandable, it also means that their curriculums are also going to be at greater mercy to the government that's supposed to do all the regulating. Given the personalities of those who are overseeing the nation's Department of Education at this moment. . .

Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#239: Apr 11th 2018 at 3:38:20 PM

New topic: Why is the American public school (K-12) bad, or is perceived as bad, at delivering STEM education? I came across an interesting article detailing a poll that says most Americans think it's at or below average compared to other developed nations.

As someone about to leave that school system, I think part of the issue - even going beyond general attitudes towards STEM - is that, given the scope of the curriculum in math and science classes, teachers are forced to deliver content at an exhausting pace without much time for in-class review, which is critical to understanding the higher-level concepts.

Maybe another reason is the disparity in access - generally speaking - between public and private institutions in terms of funding, consistent support from administration, quality equipment, etc.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#240: Apr 11th 2018 at 3:44:25 PM

STEM education in public school would be better if the teachers in so many states weren't constantly fighting to be able to teach science instead of Christianity.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#241: Apr 12th 2018 at 4:33:29 AM

That is quite a conundrum.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#242: May 15th 2018 at 8:30:14 AM

@Xopher001: Far too many institution are being degraded in that fashion for my liking, but the United States still has the best tertiary education system in the world for those able to pay for it. Pay being the biggest sticking point here; it's a horrendously unequal system that leaves huge swaths of the population out in the cold, but there's a reason the US scores the highest in the world by far on metrics gauging innovation, and it's one of the only things about my birth country that I'm actually proud of.

edited 15th May '18 8:31:35 AM by CaptainCapsase

Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#243: May 15th 2018 at 10:57:53 AM

College sports are there because they help said for-profit colleges pay for themselves. They're in dire need of reform, because for various reasons NCAA athletes are in a weird place between student and employee to the detriment of both, but they serve a purpose in bringing home alumni bacon in a system where colleges aren't paid for by taxes.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#244: May 15th 2018 at 2:41:44 PM

Don’t most colleges loose money when it comes to their sports programs?

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#245: Jul 29th 2018 at 6:11:05 AM

Does anyone know about the Navient lawsuit and how this can effect the student borrowers?

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#246: Jul 29th 2018 at 2:54:41 PM

The US education system isn't actually as bad it's usually stated to be, but it's also nothing to write home about either.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#247: Aug 1st 2018 at 2:14:12 PM

I guess you are right, there is always room for improvement and the US really needs to improve.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#248: Sep 8th 2018 at 5:33:38 PM

Kennesaw State cheerleader sues officials over national anthem protests note  An update from a story posted here some time ago.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#249: Sep 20th 2018 at 11:25:43 AM

I know this has been talked about quite a bit by my current school district, but many schools are looking to adjust the school day to help teens get more sleep and parents save on child care.

    Full article text 
Emphasis mine.
The world does not revolve around you, teens are often told. Indeed it doesn’t, as they are reminded every school-day morning when disabling their alarms. The average start time for public high schools, 7:59, requires teens to get up earlier than is ideal for their biological clocks, meaning many teens disrupt their natural sleep patterns every school day.

The world, apparently, does not revolve around parents either. Their lives also tend to be mismatched with school-day schedules, which usually end a good two hours before the typical American workday does. As Kara Voght recently wrote in The Atlantic, that leaves a daily gap of unsupervised time for many children, forcing their parents to find affordable care for their kid or to adjust their own working schedule.

It’s not entirely clear who the school day does revolve around. The schedules that dictate most of American K-12 life descend from times when fewer households had two working parents. The result is a school day that frazzles just about everybody. But a few changes could mitigate that frazzling significantly. “I don’t know about making everyone perfectly happy,” says Catherine Brown, the vice president of education policy at the Center for American Progress, a left-leaning think tank. “But I think that we could get much closer to optimizing for students, parents, teachers.” The school day, Brown says, could be improved in two main ways: It could start later, and it could go longer.

A later start, in both middle and high school, would help with the later sleep cycles that are typical in teenage years. Most teens don’t naturally fall asleep until about 11 p.m., and are supposed to get about nine hours of sleep per night. But when class starts before 8:30—as the most recent federal data indicates it does at 87 percent of American public high schools—waking up in time for school cuts into needed sleep. Postponing the start of the school day, researchers have found, does lead middle and high schoolers to get more rest—they don't just stay up later. And then, once better-rested, studies show that teens do better in school, get in fewer car crashes, and are less prone to depression.

Half past eight—the target for many start-school-later advocates—is actually still earlier than would be totally ideal. Kyla Wahlstrom, a lecturer at the University of Minnesota who conducted the first study examining the effects of later start times on high schoolers back in the late 1990s, told me that, taking only teens’ sleep needs into account, the best start time would be around 9:00 or 9:30; that would give them the optimal amount of time to sleep and get ready. “8:30,” she says, “is a compromise that allows more sleep, but does not impinge on the after-school activities.”

In the 20-plus years since Wahlstrom conducted that first study, hundreds of schools have moved back their start times, according to the advocacy group Start School Later, which does its best to count in absence of an official government tally. The group’s cause has gained momentum as the American Academy of Pediatrics (in 2014), the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (in 2015), and then the American Medical Association (in 2016) recommended that middle and high schools start no earlier than 8:30, citing sleep deprivation’s negative effects on students’ health and academics. A California state bill currently awaiting the governor’s signature would require most middle and high schools to start no earlier than 8:30, which could affect the sleep schedules of millions of teens; still, earlier start times remain the norm nationwide. (And worldwide: “Although we don’t have comparative data, I have observed that starting [the] school day early is not an exception,” says Yuri Belfali, the head of early childhood and schools at the OECD, a group representing 36 mostly wealthy countries. “For example, it is not unusual that [the] school day starts at 7:30 a.m. or earlier in Singapore and other Asian countries, or in Brazil.”)

The rationale for the second school-day change—go longer, for working parents’ sake—is just as straightforward. More than a thousand American schools have extended their school days by an hour and a half, and many charter schools, which have more latitude than normal public ones, have school days that end closer to when work does. But no movement has formed around altering the school day in this way; there’s no advocacy group called Make School Longer (a tougher sell to students, probably) and America’s respected medical groups seem unlikely to announce a stance on how to make it easier for parents to juggle work and their kids’ schooling.

I asked Brown what her ideal school-day schedule would look like, if she could start from scratch. She told me it’d start later, at 8 or 8:30—not just for teens, but also for younger kids. The day would end at 5 or 5:30, but the extended day's extra hours wouldn't be spent solely in the classroom. Brown says she’d “have a period in the afternoon where they’re doing creative activities and they’re doing physical activities, sports, arts, music—I would bake all that stuff into the day, as opposed to the after-school being plopped on, disconnected from the rest of the learning goals of the school.” (In Brown’s hypothetical ideal school day, teachers wouldn’t be asked to work longer days, but would instead work in shifts.)

Today’s standard 6.5-hour school day looks quite different. “I’m not pretending this is a utopia,” Brown says. “I’m just repeatedly struck, as a mother and as an education policy wonk, [by] how schools don’t often consider the needs of parents' work schedules when they’re designing all kinds of policies.”

Early start and end times have remained the norm in part because inertia is powerful—it’s “a problem in the sense that this is how we’ve always done it, so this is the way we’ll keep doing it,” Brown says. And the obstacles to changing it usually fall under three general categories: sports, buses, and funding.

“When there’s a weird practice in American education and you don’t know why, if you say ‘sports,’ you’ll be right about 75 percent of the time,” says Jonathan Zimmerman, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Graduate School of Education. A lot of the pushback against moving back school start times, he notes, comes from coaches, players, and parents who worry that the change would eat into precious practice and game time. For instance, when an education board on Long Island sought public comments last year on the possibility of moving school start times back, some parents fought the change passionately. “Every single contest that we play next year will be affected by a 3 o’clock [end] time,” one father warned. “Every practice and every single game.”

Frequently, though, athletics programs adjust just fine, as some school administrators have noted after starting school days later. And in fact, there’s good evidence suggesting that getting more rest helps athletes perform better and be less vulnerable to injuries. Nonetheless, sports-related concerns often dominate when the prospect of later start times is raised.

Buses are the second issue. Brown says many districts don’t have enough of them to move every kid at once, so fleets works in cycles, staggering pick-up and drop-off times based on age. High schoolers are usually first—parents tend not to want younger children waiting in the dark—then middle schoolers, then elementary schoolers.

This arrangement dates back to four or five decades ago, and teens’ sleep needs were not on its architects’ minds. Back then, buses were a way of getting kids to school amid new, pedestrian-unfriendly sprawl (most kids used to just walk), but also of assuaging fears that walking to school alone was dangerous. And as many districts bought buses and hired drivers, they kept fleets only as big as absolutely necessary, to save money. Increasing spending on buses and drivers is no small thing when many schools are already dealing with slashed budgets; transportation costs might rank as a lower priority at schools with, say, outdated textbooks or run-down facilities.

Which connects to the third common category of opposition to changing the school day: concerns about funding a longer day. Increasing the amount of time that schools operate each day, as Brown favors, would cost money. She cites this as another reason that changing the school day is difficult. “Our schools haven’t even recovered from the 2008 recession,” Brown says. “More than half of states are funding their school systems at a lower level than they were in 2008.”

Still, she says, there are ways for schools to adapt. As she outlined in a 2016 report, there are a few ways that schools could apply for federal funding to extend the school day under the Every Student Succeeds Act of 2015. Also, she says schools could have outside enrichment programs step in for a period of the day.

At any rate, many parents already are paying for the fact that the school day ends before the workday, in the form of childcare or extracurriculars. “We’re effectively asking parents right now to subsidize the school day,” Brown said.

There is probably no such thing as a school-day schedule that satisfies every constituency. Keep start times early, and teens don’t get the sleep they need. Make start times later, and people involved in sports and other extracurriculars complain, and transportation costs go up. Keep school days the usual length, and working parents are in a jam. Make school days longer, and both students and teachers might dread the added time. But still, it seems an amended school-day schedule could make a lot of these people collectively less unhappy than they are now.

Kids have to go somewhere while their parents work, and it’s going to get funded one way or another. Ansley Erickson, an associate professor of history and education at Columbia University’s Teachers College, told me about another model, from the early-20th century in New York City, when a lot of mothers worked outside the home. “There was a lot more time that kids spent unsupervised, and there were also a lot more intentional spaces in the city where kids could be and be supervised that were not school spaces,” she said. Some of these were private (after-school programs run by churches or community centers) and some were public (libraries; playgrounds staffed with supervisors to watch over children). There are, as history indicates, other ways of looking after kids when they aren’t in classrooms that could serve as a model for reimagining their schedules. It would just take creativity, some reallocating of money, and most of all a collective resistance of inertia.

My middle schooler is already dealing with a much later start time than both the elementary kid and the high schooler. I'm not sure how much it's actually improving his sleep schedule (if at all), but I know it would be a great deal easier on my wife. We'll see how the schedules change, and by how much, when we have to move. I remember when I was in high school, having to get up at 5am to catch a bus so I would be at school for a 0705 am start time for classes.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#250: Sep 20th 2018 at 11:48:46 AM

For my secondary school you were expected to be up by 8:30 (it was a boarding school) and first classes were at 9, basicly the entire school was asleep until 8am when the people doing wake up would go round and wake everyone up.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

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