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How do you test for potential sociopathic behavior?

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SmokingBun from New Delhi Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Brony
#1: Mar 27th 2016 at 2:09:15 PM

So my story is about an organization that specializes in brainwashing children and turning them into perfect killers or assassins. They need to be fiercely loyal and complete the mission at all costs, they must actively enjoy combat and feel a minimum amount of fear. So the organization performs a test to see which ones have that "killer" potential but I haven't been able to decide what that test should be.

The organization believes sociopathic tendencies would be a good thing to have and I thought of a Clockwork Orange style torture session where the test subjects are subjected to scenes of graphic violence. The kids that have the least severe reactions or don't suffer as much trauma (say PTSD style nightmares) from the session get selected for further training.

Any other suggestions? How do similar fictional stories handle this?

One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#2: Mar 27th 2016 at 6:20:05 PM

What you are describing is not sociopathy, but psychopathy. There is a subtle but important difference between the two.

From a pragmatic perspective, true psychopathy isn't actually desirable in most circumstances. Psychopaths do not play well with others, have exceedingly poor impulse control, tend not to think in the long term, and have too little fear of consequences to properly avoid significant threats or respond consistently to authority.

While a lack of empathy and a certain reptilian cunning not uncommon in intelligent antisocial individuals may be desirable here, screening for psychopathy isn't nearly so effective as creating an environment where controlled violence and unconditional obedience are the only keys to survival. The ideal is, therefore, to create an individual scarred in such a way as to exhibit psychopathic behaviours, but with enough fear for their own life (or for those of others who may be used as leverage) and long-term reasoning ability to avoid becoming a liability—cultivated sociopathy, in other words.

This is not going to be fun reading, but if you really want to pursue this to the bitter end, I'd advise you read up on the treatment of child soldiers in militant groups like the Lord's Resistance Army and Boko Haram. But if you're not ready for that, well, you might not be ready to write this at all.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
peasant Since: Mar, 2011
#3: Mar 28th 2016 at 3:25:38 AM

[up] I may be wrong but my understanding is that "psychopathy" and "sociopathy" are outdated as medical and psychological terms; representing two archetypal patterns amidst a spectrum of behaviour seen in antisocial/dissocial personality disorder (the precise term for the PD depending on whether you're referring to the DSM-5 or ICD-10).

In simplistic terms, the main areas of difference are the levels of impulsivity and remorse shown for their actions; with the concepts of the "hot-headed sociopath" and "cold-blooded psychopath" being the common imagery used to differentiate the two patterns of behaviour. Simply put - sociopaths act impulsively and display some remorse for their actions while psychopaths act more calculatively and with less remorse.

edited 28th Mar '16 3:27:24 AM by peasant

SmokingBun from New Delhi Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Brony
#4: Mar 28th 2016 at 7:54:33 AM

@JHM

You are correct, psychopathy is closer to what I'm looking for. Since my protagonist is a result of the experiments, she is incredibly smart and cunning. While lacking in true empathy (save a few rare cases), she is an expert at manipulating others and saying just the right thing to earn their trust. I read an article on how psychopaths like to cultivate an image that they present, a test relating to attractiveness found that those with psychopathic tendencies tend to work harder on their make-up so that they are seen as beautiful and approachable by regular people. Which totally fits in with my character.

Cultivated sociopathy it is then. The illusion of giving a damn.

As far as Boko Haram and their type is considered, I have already been reading up on them so this sort of stuff is completely up my alley. I am familiar with how child soldiers get made.

@peasant

My protagonist is certainly more towards being an impulsive sociopath. However soon she realizes that the hotheadedness is a weakness so she learns to be more disciplined, less angry shouting and more methodical planning.

edited 28th Mar '16 7:59:17 AM by SmokingBun

One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#5: Mar 28th 2016 at 4:54:06 PM

[up][up] ASPD is indeed the preferred modern diagnosis and terminology, but differentiating between the different forms the disorder can take and what conditions it may be co-morbid with is easier when one has words to describe the different species. Hare's psychopathy checklist is still in use, in a modified form, and actually describes a disordered personality type with not only antisocial qualities, but some narcissistic, borderline and sadistic traits as well, so what makes a "psychopath" is pretty straightforward. Part of this stems from the fact that the original ASPD classification excluded symptoms which the authors of the DSM felt were excessively subjective, particularly those related to remorse and empathy, where Hare considers these crucial. Generally speaking, it is viewed as a subset of that disorder or, more rarely, the furthest end of the spectrum of malignant narcissism.

Now, I did admittedly somewhat screw up the generally accepted definition of "sociopathy," as it's decidedly less cut and dried, and researching pseudo-psychopathy—the condition or cluster of traits which is generally cited as a synonym for the concept—is surprisingly difficult. You are correct, however, that pseudo-psychopathic individuals tend to have even worse impulse control despite a greater fear of consequences and a limited but extant capacity for empathy (where a psychopath lacks this entirely). This cleaves a lot closer to the classic ASPD case: Aggressive, neurotic, self-destructive, weak impulse control, and so forth. Less charming, more intense; more likely to key your car, less likely to steal your job.

Either way, antisocial individuals are a crapshoot for even a terrorist organisation because they tend to dick people over, ignore orders, talk out of both sides of their mouth, and generally make life hell for their superiors. Murderous fanatics are generally not psychopaths or sociopaths. All told, you're more likely to meet an antisocial individual at an office party or in the local drunk tank than in the bunker of a secret assassination ring.

That said, I do recall a notorious mob enforcer being used as a prototypical example of extreme, violent psychopathy. The fellow liked to get... creative, which ultimately is what helped the FBI get him. Which is generally what happens to guys like that: They get caught because they like to hurt people and they don't have a good emotional understanding of consequences.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#6: Mar 29th 2016 at 6:19:06 PM

Realistically, you can't actually train empathy out of a person, it's hardwired into (most people's) brains. You can so traumatize someone that they suppress their feelings of empathy as a psychological defense mechanism, but that won't produce a "perfect killer". Child soldiers aren't esp. effective combat fighters.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
SmokingBun from New Delhi Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Brony
#7: Apr 3rd 2016 at 5:31:44 AM

@JHM

Yeah, ASPD cases describe my character to a T. To be honest, the organization that creates her don't fully understand the science of what they are doing since the people in charge just throw money at the problem and expect the scientists (who themselves have been forced) to make something profitable. A very much Jurassic Park situation where they are obsessed with the science of could rather than should. Precisely why their experiment turns on them, a failure on their part.

In a way it's a decon-recon where the few allies she makes (mostly because she can't "beat" them) de-program her somewhat and train her to be more stable. Of course you can't change psychology with a nice pep talk but you can make a person understand their failings. The mob enforcer thing is a good example, the only reason my character even wins is by virtue of being a near-superhuman wrecking ball.

@De Marquis

You: Realistically, you can't actually train empathy out of a person, it's hardwired into (most people's) brains.

Mad Scientist: Really? Sounds like a challenge!! Muhahaha!

I do agree with you but as mentioned my character won't be engaging in battlefield combat or even guerrilla warfare for that matter. Espionage and infiltration, ad their success is limited tat best because like you said psychopaths tend to be unpredictable and work for themselves.

One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#8: Apr 3rd 2016 at 7:21:08 AM

I like how you Deconstruct it and show it really does not work wink

Nixterman Old Hickory from Yurop Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: In bed with a green-skinned space babe
Old Hickory
#9: Apr 21st 2016 at 1:53:46 AM

Whoever is running your evil organization is probably Laughably Evil. Sociopaths and psychopaths have very poor impulse control, do not recognize any authority and stink at long-term planning. Those are not traits you want in a successful spy or hitman.

Rather, a good way to have someone commit atrocities is to invert the moral compass of a normal person, convincing them that what they are doing is actually good. I'd suggest looking into the propaganda of the Third Reich and Soviet Union. Another poster mentioned Boko Haram, and they're worth looking into if you want your brainwashing with a religious flavor.

Another thing I'd suggest keeping in mind, given that your character is female, is that the manifestation of ASPD in females is very poorly understood by modern science. In fact, there is a significant difference between the number of diagnosed male and the number of female psychopaths (the ratio is 3:1), there have been arguments that this doesn't mean that psychopathy is likelier to affect males, but rather, that ASPD manifests differently in women and psychopathic women have been flying under the radar of psychiatrists. Since most ASPD diagnoses are made in prison, this might also be related to the prison population gap.

I welcome this attempt to deconstruct the 'smooth psychopath' trope. I believe, personally, that it's a cop-out on the part of our society, which seems unwilling to realize that good people are perfectly capable of committing evil acts when they believe that those acts are good.

I'm a lawyer in real life. Yes, I do own a pair of bunny ears.
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