Riverdale, an Archie Comics adaptation on the CW

I've heard someone propose Neve Campbell to be Jughead's mom. It'd make a nice Scream reference.

Oh, yeah.

http://www.refinery29.com/2017/08/170160/vanessa-morgan-toni-topaz-riverdale-death-threats

Is Toni Topaz an original character? Her name doesn't ring a bell.

EDIT: Ah, here she is! She's bisexual. http://archiecomics.com/characters/toni-topaz/

I wonder if we'll see characters like Harper Lodge, Raj Patel, or Trev Smith.

...I feel bad that the classic line ended right after these new characters were introduced, especially Harper. :\ It feels like a waste.

edited 29th Aug '17 4:05:53 PM by lalalei2001

Um,

http://archiecomics.wikia.com/wiki/Toni_Topaz

I did my research on this character, and her being a gang member is not part of her original depiction.

Great, it's another Chuck situation on our hands

edited 30th Aug '17 3:37:54 AM by windleopard

Insofar as I think I understand what you're trying to say, I reject it.

I don't know if it will be as bad as Chuck. Yeah, she'll be crucified by the Bughead stans, but the gang didn't seem framed as particularly bad. I hope she ends up just being a really charming friend of his, and the worst that comes from it is some Betty jealousy.

edited 30th Aug '17 1:24:12 PM by iamthecircle

Well, the actress is already getting some death threats, so there's that.

And as far as her being in a gang-Jughead is also in that gang! One of the show's few gay characters was in that gang. I don't see the big deal at all.

If this show was more faithful to the comics tone, yes maybe she'd just be a cupcake chomping rival to Jughead. But this is Riverdale, darkier and edgier is the rule of the day.

And while Cheronica is fast becoming one of my favorite ships, I hope the actress gets her wish and Toni dates Cheryl at some point.

The show definitely does have a lot of female queer subtext, and I'd like to see that become actual text. I'm also hoping her friendship with Jughead is a red herring, and she'll really hook with either Veronica or Cheryl.

You don't see the issue of taking not one but two black characters and turning them into racial stereotypes?

Yes the show has made changes but even then, how many originally white characters from the comics have been turned into criminals vs the originally black ones that have been made criminals?

That would be an issue, but that isn't what happened.

Nothing about Chuck is a black stereotype. He's a big man on campus type who is explicitly compared to a Kennedy and could easily be played by some swoop-haired polo shirt wearing white dude and be the exact same. (Alex Calvert springs to mind-he plays excellent D-bag)

And you can't say that Topaz is a stereotype-she hasn't even been in an episode yet. Making her a member of the Southside Serpents does not make her some black caricature.

Clifford Blossom and FP Jones have both been turned into criminals, one a particularly foul one, and they're not by canon.

Cliff is probably the most stereotypical, and even that's a reach.

He's a misogynistic, sexually depraved black guy who's an asshole to women. Yeah, that is a stereotype.

She's a black character who's a gang member. How is she not a caricature?

Please note that the issue is that these characters weren't "bad guys" in the comics. The fact that the adaptation made them that way, especially when their race is taken into account, is what makes it problematic.

Sad to say, black men don't own being misogynistic jock assholes. Look at...well, any college in America. I've seen the exact same storyline with Chuck done with plenty of white characters-sexism tends to cut across race.

Chuck's a negative portrayal of a black person, he's not an indictment of black people.

As for Topaz, "black gang member" isn't a caricature on its own, because there are several other black characters who aren't criminals on the show and many other Southside Serpents who aren't black (FP, Alice-formerly, Joquian, Mustang, Jughead-potentially)

If Chuck and Topaz were the only two black people on the show, then I might think this argument had merit. But with five other characters that I can think of who are at least semi positive people, it falls flat. Not to mention the Serpents haven't really been shown to be that bad, really-they're low level drug dealers.

Its like saying the show is anti-Latino because Hiram Lodge is a criminal played by Mark Consuelos.

One of the fun things about racism is that races are often stereotyped for things that other races do. For example, it's a Southern stereotype that black people are obsessed with fried chicken and watermelon. Where did this stereotype come from? Fried chicken and watermelon are common foods in the South, so everyone eats them. Racists turned it into a Thing, something else to use to look down on black people for.

So, yeah, being a misogynistic jock isn't unique to black people... except that racists act like it is, so it becomes a stereotype. And of course the fact that there's a dearth of black people in the show doesn't help. Chuck is the only black male on the show (besides the Principal, but as an adult he's in a separate category), and the fact that he got changed so much from his comic interpretation makes it look very disturbingly intentional. Topaz should be fine since she's not the first or only black female on the show, but we'll have to see.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not concerned about Topaz's character considering we haven't seen her character yet. But it does highlight the much larger problem with the show: It's unbelievably tone-deaf at times. I mean, this is the same show that portrayed a teacher-student affair romantically, sidelined nearly all of its minority and non-straight characters, and (as stated above) gave us a horribly disgusting character in Chuck Clayton.

But honestly, this is a problem with the CW in general. Although, Riverdale is still one of the worst offenders (ironically, the Arrow-verse is surprisingly decent at representation). Also, the show can still redeem itself. I'm crossing my fingers hoping that Josie, Trev, Moose, and Reggie get some real character development.

Sorry, I was really not thinking through the implications of Toni being black and in a gang. Especially since the Southside Serpents are more the Outsiders than anything on the streets. They seem genuinely pretty harmless. But it is incredibly tone deaf especially after Chuck who does reek of the stereotype that black males are sexual predators. Honestly I was blinded by her cute character design and was more concerned about unfair fandom bashing.

edited 31st Aug '17 6:30:17 PM by iamthecircle

Would it have been a bad idea to introduce Sabrina Spellman in season 2? And if she did, would Riverdale fall into the Sci-Fi Ghetto?

Thus far, the show has been pretty devoid of any magical elements. And how is it sci fi ghetto when Sabrina is a magic character?

Last time I checked, one of the biggest shows on TV right now is fantasy. Adding a magic-focused character, who is present in the source material, isn't going to make that many people drop the show out of disgust. Especially since the show already has a rather odd atmosphere to begin with.

Game of Thrones is more the exception than the rule. Even then, odd =/= magic.

Tone-deaf is a pretty good way to describe it. It's especially noticeable when the comics have been, for the most part, more successful with darker or more mature endeavors.

edited 4th Sep '17 9:09:28 PM by lalalei2001

I think the only way the show can fix the tone-deafness is simply giving the minority characters more screentime. Also, giving them arcs that are directly tied to their race/orientation.

Josie constantly talking about her "black experience" and how privileged Archie is and how important having band members that are POC is just annoying and condescending.

Also, give Kevin a story that doesn't involve him having a boyfriend or being the sassy gay. Just, ugh. He deserves better.

edited 4th Sep '17 9:39:40 PM by deuteragonist

I actually liked Josie's story because the fact that her race was tied up in everything she did was a plot point; her mother is a political Stage Mom who insists on being super race-aware. She also moved past her "angry at Archie for being white and being involved" thing after that one episode. She does deserve more plots, but she's one of the most important secondary characters and got most of an episode dedicated to her family issues, so it's not like she just some random name-drop.

Kevin definitely deserves better, though. For crying out loud, his boyfriend got a more developed plot than him, and I don't even remember that guy's name.

edited 4th Sep '17 10:14:53 PM by Discar

Yeah, I would also enjoy it if Kevin got more focus this season.

I'd also like it if Josie got a plotline connected to either Betty or Jughead, since she was mainly connected to Archie via music stuff last season and no so much the others.

More Cheryl and anyone scenes are also something I'm looking forward to.

I have to agree. Kevin is one of the more stereotypical and shallow queer characters in a Berlanti show.