Final Action: Wick Cleanup: Magnum Opus

I've been primarily checking YMMV pages, since that's where a lot of non-In-Universe wicks lie. Only a couple were moved, but I had a rough time with The Lion King, since the mentioned creator doesn't have a page here. Had to move it to Trivia for now until we figure out how to deal with it.

edited 4th Feb '16 10:05:12 AM by Berrenta

^ Is this the entry that you mean?

• Magnum Opus: As far as the movies he's overseen goes, former Disney studio chief and Dream Works co-founder Jeffrey Katzenberg considers The Lion King to be his Magnum Opus. It's the one film he's vowed to watch again someday (sadly, this happened to be his Grand Finale release for Walt Disney Feature Animation; he was sent out the door a few months after the film's premiere, and wasn't allowed to go to the U.K. premiere when Elton John bailed out of a party he was supposed to host).

I'm thinking that examples like these can probably be moved to Creator's Favorite Episode for now. That page is a little stubby though; would it require a separate TRS thread to expand its definition a bit to better accommodate examples that are works in and of themselves as opposed to episodes of a larger work? That's how it's de facto being used now, but the repeated use of the word "episode" in the description makes it sound more narrow.

edited 4th Feb '16 9:41:44 AM by HighCrate

That's a common thing with "episode" named tropes. Even caused some sister tropes to be launched that are the same except "not an episode".

Yep, that one. If it should be moved to Creator's Favorite Episode, then we could do that.

edited 4th Feb '16 10:02:07 AM by Berrenta

What do we do with Magnum Opus Dissonance?

Magnum Opus Dissonance requires the creator to state it as their best work, making it objective enough that the definition is working fine as is. Magnum Opus was suppose to have a similar definition, but its use decayed such that this cleanup became necessary.

Not sure I agree with keeping Magnum Opus Dissonance.

• While it won't suffer quite as much from arguing over which examples count, at the end of the day it's still just an opinion. Isn't that just People Sit On Chairs? Surely every music artist or film maker ever has been asked which album or movie they consider their best.
• In order to see where the dissonance comes from, one must usually know which work is considered the Magnum Opus. Else it might just be the creator agreeing with the fans.
• Won't the existence of Magnum Opus Dissonance just invite people to list their entries there instead? With less arguing, one would suppose, but still.

Incidentally, KLM wicks are done.

Magnum Opus and Magnum Opus Dissonance are sufficiently different tropes that I see no spilling over between them.

Magnum Opus is what's viewed as a creators best work, Magnum Opus Dissonance is what a creators views as their best work* (an on the record fact that makes it trivia and not YMMV) but audiences think otherwise.

Unless you know of any misuse (if so, please give examples), I see nothing wrong enough with Magnum Opus Dissonance to warrant revisions to it.

• Magnum Opus was also likely meant to be defined as such, but since most examples didn't follow that definition, and no consensus on if that was the definition could be made, it needed TRS.

The difference is that Magnum Opus was supposed to refer to a broad fan and critical consensus, which is very difficult to effectively demonstrate so it led to problems.

Magnum Opus Dissonance refers to a lack of consensus, which is much easier to demonstrate. It doesn't require that the fan and critical bases are unanimous in disagreeing with the artist, just that there is a large and vocal disagreement.

It's not that I don't think Magnum Opus Dissonance could fall victim to People Sit On Chairs syndrome, but I have no idea whether it is or not. If you're concerned, I'd suggest running a wick check to demonstrate misuse and starting a new TRS thread for that page.

edited 6th Feb '16 2:09:29 PM by HighCrate

NOPQ are done.

Upon further analysis of Magnum Opus Dissonance, I think a TRS thread might in fact be called for. While a cut does seem avoidable, I do see several problems, and they mostly stem from one thing: there was never any consensus on what a Magnum Opus exactly is.

So right now Magnum Opus Dissonance tries to be three tropes at once:

• Listing the grandest works or pet projects that flopped
• Listing the best works (according to the creators) that happen to clash with the opinion of critics and/or audiences (i.e. "Creator Opinion Dissonance")
• Listing the works that creators just crammed out and saw as commercial drivel (compared to their usual standards) that have become so popular it's now what they are best remembered for (i.e. "This actor tried to play in serious dramas but everyone only remembers him for his goofy comedic roles.")

Right now all of these definitions are jumbled together. And all the mentions of what fans consider to be the true Magnum Opus are also jumbled together.

edited 6th Feb '16 7:46:21 PM by Freshmeat

Hmm. Reading Magnum Opus Dissonance over with those objections in mind, I can see your point.

It should probably get its own thread though, as its problems (and potentially, solutions) are not necessarily related to those with Magnum Opus.

The remaining wicks have been cleaned up.

What actions remain for this specific project, then? We can open a new TRS for Magnum Opus Dissonance if needed; let's not lump them together.

^^ Wow, that must have taken a lot of time and work. Kudos!

^ All of my concerns with Magnum Opus have been addressed at this point; unless anyone else has any objections, I think we can call this a job well done and close the thread. (Magnum Opus Dissonance can get its own thread if necessary; I fully agree that this isn't the right place to address its issues).

edited 8th Feb '16 7:55:54 AM by HighCrate

There is one thing I'm still not entirely clear on now that the wick cleanup has finished. Examples where the creator has declared a given work to be his/her/their magnum opus have been allowed to stay. Do they go on the main page for the work and/or the creator's page, or do they go on the work's YMMV page? I've seen examples post-cleanup on both main pages and YMMV pages. And should such examples be crosswicked to the Magnum Opus trope page?

The trope is no longer YMMV, so if it's listed as a YMMV item, it should be moved. If it's linked in an example, then it can stay if it's in-universe or if the creator said that it is their greatest.

edited 11th Feb '16 8:00:30 PM by Berrenta

I think (unless anyone has objections?) examples of works the creator considers their best can be moved to Creator's Favorite Episode.

Sound good.

No objections here either, unless there are issues with designating standalone works "episodes" when viewed as entries in their creators' body of work. I gather Creator's Favorite Episode is Trivia, so the examples should be moved there and, I presume, cross-wicked to the Creator's Favorite Episode page.

edited 12th Feb '16 12:36:45 PM by mlsmithca

^ That all sounds good to me. I'd be up for expanding the description of Creator's Favorite Episode to more explicitly apply to standalone works as well (not sure if that would require a separate TRS thread or if we can just decide to do that from here), but even without it, I'd say that since Tropes Are Flexible it makes more sense to do it that way than to try to make a whole separate "Creators Favorite Work" page.

This thread has been dead for a while. I move to close it to make room for other matters and deal with Creator's Favorite Episode in another thread if anyone feels strongly enough about it to do the work.

Have the wicks and the like been worked on?

Here is a list of the links. Looks like the YMMV uses of this trope are fixed. Any more work needed?

How are we on this? Should this thread be locked and we move onto other things?

I did detect a ghost wick in the wick list and squashed it. If we have nothing else, we can consider this done.