Nationalism in Anime

Blackface is still quite popular in Korea.

Well, I was speaking from an American perspective. And even here...well, let's just say some people are assholes.

Oh God! Natural light!

Shouldn't people have the right to offend others, though? If not then comedy is dead.

Sex-negative outrage culture and the Illuminati are real

You should have the right to offend others as long as that offense doesn't carry over into actual damage to others, or desensitive others to the actual suffering and problems of minorities/foreigners.

Offense that either goes into actual humiliation territory or is aimed at audiences that mostly wouldn't know better enough as to not let the offensive content affect their actual views, consciously or not, is a loaded weapon.

Comedy can exist without, say, treating people as jokes and perpetuating harmful stereotypes just because they look/talk/act/think differently than you, especially if they already have been constantly, and in all seriousness, treated as inferior.

Joke responsibly, friends.

edited 8th Sep '15 2:02:48 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

Really? I never saw anything like that here. I heard of the news that used such techniques, and most of the comments were criticizing how utterly tasteless it was.

You seem to be under impression that it is impossible to produce humor without offending someone. Long story short, not it's not.

Also, would it be okay then for a German writer to write a story that glorifies the Nazis and demonize the Jews?

Although normally I refrain from using Reductio ad Hitlerium, but given the topic of this thread, I feel that it's actually relevant and appropriate.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

The problem with blackface is not so much what it represented, but that it was the only representation in media of a major ethnic group who were not allowed to represent themselves. Negroes were only ever extras in film and their role was taken up by non-threatening caricatures, making the practice a microcosm of segregation. The key is to look not at any one portrayal of matters, but of where it fits in the mainstream portrayals around.

I know Samurai Girls is silly, but that doesn't take it off the hook entirely. Silly depictions still matter if they are unironic and lazily play to expectations. Love comedies and harem shows annoy me with their "boy says/does something perveted in front of a girl, girl gets outraged and slaps/yells at him, repeat" routine because it reaffirms gender norms and sex-shaming with nothing to go against it. I have no interest in watching the show but it could be good analysis fodder.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

...Have there ever been any harem series that took the genre to task for repeating the same tropes over and over again?

Oh God! Natural light!

Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei mocks and reviles a few harem tropes along its run.

Which ones?

Oh God! Natural light!

Tsunderism, love at first sight, stalking as love, innocent cohabitation, the male leads' usual virginity, First Girl Wins (it's... complicated), and the Marry Them All conclusion, in quite a chilling manner.

edited 8th Sep '15 7:00:18 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Saenai Heroine No Sodatekata? It was basically a harem series with the moral "real people can't be reduced to archetypes".

edited 8th Sep '15 7:10:13 PM by Prime32

Isn't it steering off-topic here?

edited 8th Sep '15 11:16:36 PM by TrueShadow1

Somewhat, yes.

Getting back I have suddenly developed a curious theses regarding Japanese nationalism and El-Hazard: The Magnificent World

Specifically about the four Japanese characters transported to El-Hazard and how they represent various parts/facets of Japanese society.

First off we have Makoto, who's power (the ability to mentally interface to the technology of ancient El-Hazard) represents modern, high tech Japan.

Fujisawa, the oldest of the four, ironically represents Japan's youth and the (at the time of making) emerging otaku culture. While capable of great feats, especially when directed to their particular hobbies, they are also easily undermined by their weaknesses and flaws running uncontrolled.

Nanami is Japan as the capitalist powerhouse (this was made before the bubble really broke, or not long after) and while aligned with and enamoured of modern Japan's technophilia, cannot be separated from Japan's past, represented with Nanami and Jinnai being siblings.

Jinnai himself is more pertinent to this discussion, representing Japan's militaristic past and those who lionise it. Self-centred self-aggrandising and more or less immune to the opinions of others. In latter series he is stripped of his power base and is little more than an Ineffectual Sympathy Villain, but in the original OAV, with real power, he was a genuine threat.

Your thoughts

edited 9th Sep '15 2:44:18 AM by KnightofLsama

It's not impossible, but that doesn't mean that comedy should be censored just because it offends somebody. Making jokes about Nazis burning Jews would definitely be in poor taste, but a person should still be allowed to make those kind of jokes. Moreover, people should still be allowed to be nationalist or make jokes about being nationalist. People should also be allowed to criticize these things. But people should not be allowed to censor one or the other just for the sake of "my feelings."

As Roger Ebert said, "Political correctness is the fascism of the 90's." It's a few decades later but his point still stands.

Sex-negative outrage culture and the Illuminati are real

Would you be okay with me paraphrasing that as "everyone has the right to be an asshole, just as everyone else has the right to treat them like they're an asshole?" 'Cause that's been my feeling on the subject of offensive humor for a while now.

Should've checked the list.

Pretty much. But if you try to censor assholes then comedy will die in the crossfire.

Sex-negative outrage culture and the Illuminati are real

Send-up of harems: Ore no Nounai Sentakushi ga, Gakuen Love Comedy wo Zenryoku de Jama Shiteiru. More sophisticated deconstructions: Boku Wa Tomodachi Ga Sukunai, Bakemonogatari, and before that Evangelion. But that's for another topic.

Comparing political correctness to fascism is just a failure to understand either. It's closer to a religious norm. I'll add that I find most offensive jokes to be simply not funny, because they play off prejudices, or worse, they expect you to find the idea of equality funny. Or because those who make them are not that smart.

edited 9th Sep '15 9:21:41 AM by Reymma

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

I disagree. Behind both there is a strong sense of authoritarianism, that what goes should be dictated by the "moral authority" with the right to rule.

And maybe you don't find them funny, but other people might. Why do you or I get to say what is allowed or what is not allowed to be humor?

Sex-negative outrage culture and the Illuminati are real

And what is allowed or not allowed to be personal or collective offense?

I don't think this discussion was meant to censor things. Rather, it's talking about pointing out what's wrong with existing works and showing whether or not they were done appropriately.

I recently sat down and powered through Bokurano. Putting aside quality or personal preferences, its overall Author Tract regarding Japanese-American relations (particularly regarding their military history) was kinda blatant; a lot of characters show disgust of Americans or their methods. This, in a severely cynical story where practically everybody has a bad side to them, and America has very little actual relevance, which really just makes it seem like the author's bias. Thoughts?

I haven't read Bokurano, but America seems like a pretty popular antagonistic force in Japanese nerd stuff. Though it should be noted that anti-Americanism isn't necessarily indicative of a nationalist bent. The protests against Anpo in 1960 were decidedly left-wing – in fact, the student union groups involved were linked to communist organizations.

Terror in Resonance has far-right ultranationalists as villains ^note  as well as the classic anime theme of "old men with entrenched power are fucking up the lives of young people in this country." and also a pretty negative view of the American government.

edited 9th Sep '15 2:30:17 PM by majoraoftime

I've heard the manga has that, with most of it removed when it was animated. But is this a left or right wing view? Is the author whitewashing his own country of doing the same in foreign policy? Is the implication that Japan should rearm, withdraw, engage peacefully? In the context of Abe causing friction with neighbours, these are the key questions.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

Let's be fair here: America isn't that popular right now in general, not even in America. Though our right wing pundits would have you believe differently. The point is, anti-Americanism is not necessarily indicative of a belief in historical revisionism and all that.