Wonder Woman Movie

Honestly, I'd say being similar to Captain America in the most superficial cliffnotes sense is way less of a problem than the fact that, in the span of only two Wonder Woman movies, they have killed the same love interest twice. That's the kind of amazing narrative redundancy that only comic book movies ever really have to worry about running into, and it would have been so much less of a problem if we'd had a couple movies in between.

A part of me thinks the aesthetic and tonal leap was just a bridge too far. The first one is more of a gritty war film set in the middle of literal No Man's Land (which is where Diana's idealistic heroism shines so brightly), this one leaps to the the flash and wonder of the 1980's and gets significantly wackier with the glitz and glamour of the decade in the US. The two films are thus very far apart in aesthetic and tone. Something that curiously also happens in Captain America (first film a pulp 40's adventure, second is more of a superpowered modern spy thriller in the vein of the Bourne series).

The contrast in WW was obviously a deliberate artistic choice but I think the divide harmed the film more than it helped. Leaping to a more analogous period to WWI might have helped it more. WWII might be stepping too much in Captain America's shoes, but there's a full 60 year period between the ending of WWI and the 80's. You can find other ones.

A film in the throes of the Great Depression in the 1930s could have been interesting. Deal with the rising threat of Fascism, aftermath of WWI, the rising of women in the workforce, Italian Mafia, prohibition era e.t.c.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 5th 2021 at 2:17:38 AM

So I watched it.

It was... okay.

On one hand, I liked that it was really different. It didn't feel like a superhero sequel where the plot was essentially "punch someone new this time, but this time with a different emotional angle." The plot was really non-superhero-y.

... however, the thing is the plot was... well, it felt like an eighth season episode of a series never intended to go past five seasons. It was bananaballs bonkers and weird and I kinda dug that.

The plot was, however, nonsensical. Like... nothing makes sense. I'm not talking about fantasy stuff like the Wish Stone or Wonder Woman roping lightning (which I thought was actually really fun), but logical stuff. Why is Steve an idiot impressed with trains? Why does the Smithsonian have, uh, fully fueled military jets that a WWI pilot can use, and can somehow get to Cairo?

Which isn't even going into the just weird choices like... everything with Barbara after her wish. Or Steve possessing a dude for... absolutely no reason other than to make Diana not recognize him at first, maybe (which also introduces another plothole since the guy probably has a passport even if Steve doesn't).

I really don't know how I feel about it. I like it tried something. I just don't know whether I liked how it ended up.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jan 5th 2021 at 5:45:51 AM

Indeed, is a very enjoyable movie that makes you ignore at the moment, and forgive many of the issues it has. But sadly, is a Wonder Woman movie, it shouldn't have these issues, even less afte the first movie (one that, while I didn't like, can see it as miles better than this one).

Well, if anything this movie is proof that women is as blind to some issues (like Steve possession) as men are, which is why I forgive them and don't let it affect my enjoyment of this movie, but still call on it so it doesn't happen again.

The Steve/Sharon romance in the MCU may have been extremely awkward and filled with Replacement Goldfish issues (which I still contend could've made it an interesting relationship worth exploring if those elements were openly acknowledged from the getgo instead of being Ascended Fanon the writers played into after the fact, and in a way that Ron the Death Eater'd Sharon needlessly). But at least it didn't involve implied rape.

I stole this from any number of other people, but to some extent (again I quite like the movie) the stuff with Max is like a really well done (and expensive) Twilight Zone episode, but doesn't feel much like it's part of a Wonder Woman movie.

I have no evidence for this beyond my own speculation, but I wonder if (similarly to some instances in Game of Thrones), a well-intentioned an in itself clever instance of Adaptational Heroism had negative repercussions down the line.

Specifically, by not going with Max mind-controlling people in connection with him being relatively sympathetic and avoiding the infamous death-by-neck-snap, they needed to think of another way for his powers to work. Which by extension lead to less than optimal explanation for Steve returning to life and Barbara becoming Cat Folk.

Incidentally, I haven't watched Justice League, so I'm not sure if this would have worked, but it struck me that another way of going the "Evil Max" route would be to make him a Composite Character with Glorious Godfrey or have Darkseid as the source of his power and the Greater-Scope Villain.

Edit - Although thinking about it, that kind of makes Max the Loki to Darkseid's Thanos, doesn't it?

Edited by Hodor2 on Jan 5th 2021 at 5:28:34 AM

I think is was a angle that they wanted to fill eventually, the idea of diana moving on, they want to do on screen rather than jut saying it happen in part because it sound cold, weird as it is.

But granted is weird because since Bv S and justice league are afteward it means diana is still afected by the lost a century later, also they reduce steve to a bigger, abstract thing(steven being the one who teach her that human can love and ares was wrong) rather a personal love that coudnt get away.

Honestly part of why I liked this version of Max is that they went more with his 80's characterization, which IMO was more complex. Evil Max is unnecessary, and the DCU has plenty of mastermind characters.

I wanted Cheetah to be the evil one.

The movie really made me a fan of Pedro Pascal, so I tend to agree.

It does feel like either Max or Cheetah had to be the less sympathetic one, barring someone else as the "real villain".

The "Duke of Deception" doesn't count because he/it doesn't necessarily still exist, even if the Dreamstone does.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jan 5th 2021 at 8:23:30 AM

I kinda saw it as Max deciding to turn over a new leaf at the end, while Barbara could easily just go deeper and end up Wondy's arch enemy. A nice inverse, and a good set up.

I'm hoping Max's role leads to a Justice League International adaptation somewhere down the line, tbh.

It'd be a cool way to put some structure into the timeline of the DCEU going forward, if DC were in the mood to do that. In the 80's, Ted Kord was walking around Blue Beetle-ing and BWAHAHA-ing with Booster Gold and the rest of the international squad, in a comedic superhero team that's a bit less "MCU Guardians of the Galaxy rip-off" than Suicide Squad ended up as. And in the present, Ted Kord has recently died and Jaime Reyes happens.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 5th 2021 at 6:55:07 AM

Honestly, I would adore that, and not just because I love the Beetles.

And it would be hilarious if the first Green Lantern we got in the DCEU was Guy Gardner.

Thinking more on it, I'd even love it if it was just a buddy superhero comedy film with Booster and Ted, with Max as their "trying to be good but not doing the best job" backer.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 5th 2021 at 6:58:33 AM

@Known Unknown - Shut up and take my money.

Have to admit that one disappointment I came away with was thinking that Max wouldn't/couldn't appear again because the film takes place 36 years in the past.

But I suppose that it would be easy enough to give Pedro Pascal some aging make-up. Or just think up a way for Max to maintain or recover his youth.

Oh man that would be brilliant.

They could have a descendent since Maxwell Lord in the comics is known as Maxwell Lord IV. It could be even an Identical Grandson case if we want Pedro Pascal back.

Regarding the JLI idea, maybe have the team comprise of Charlton Comic characters and possibly be a prequel for Peacemaker character (because lets face it he’s going to be a big deal after The Suicide Squad).

So Question will be there (as a substitute for Batman), Nightshade (one for Black Canery), Captain Atom (for Captain Atom . . . well I guess no change there), and Peacemaker (one for Gardner of course).

Edited by BigK1337 on Jan 6th 2021 at 7:05:27 AM

I mean, Alistair was presumably somewhere between 10-12 or so. Pedro Pascal is 45. So Pedro can play an adult version of Alistair. Call him Maxwell Alistair Lord Jr. if you want to keep the name.

Alternatively, handwave by saying becoming the Dreamstone arrests your aging. Because even if you renounce your wish, there sure as hell can be some complications with that.

Another thing that bugged me.

The power levels, and specifically how they relate to the golden armor.

So... in Diana's flashback to... whatever her name is who originally had the golden armor (I'll call her A since that's all I remember), she was the best Amazon with the best armor and all she could do was be a meatshield for the rest of the Amazons? Diana regularly goes up against men with multiple fully automatic weapons in her undies and even semi-depowered comes out alright.

Which is why it was so weird to me that she needed the armor for the final fight versus... a few more army guys. Fewer I think than she fought in Cairo.

Which leads to Barbara. At first it was good. Barbara was stronger, Diana was weaker. It made sense to me. But in their final encounter, Diana's fully powered and has this super awesome armor and doesn't exactly impress here. Granted it seemed like she was intentionally tanking blows in hoping that it would somehow cause Barbara to give up (which makes no sense, since why would she give up when she's feeling more triumphant than ever) but it just made the armor seem particularly pointless, even if Barbara has gotten a super vague power up.

Diana is explicitly stronger than the other Amazons, due to being a demi-god.

I think this was a remant of a re-write, the only ways the armor in the final battle makes sense is-

One- Diana knew Barbara was furry/clawed and could actually HURT Diana even in her powered up mode. Hence the armor is a logical need. But she didn't know that before she landed Two- Barbara's wish truly stole Diana's powers and again the armor is needed in the final fight to get past Barbara and near Max.

Option 2 would have been great if in the scene when they discover the God of Lies made the Stone and that MAX is now the stone granting wishes, Steve remarks that bringing him back MUST have cost Diana her powers and they both selflessly agree for Diana to revoke her wish so she can have her powers back and save the world. Only for it not to work...stealing the guys life was the price, and in aftermath its revealed that Barbara has Diana's powers and is not giving them up. This would leave Diana powerless in the final fight adding more to the stakes and showing Diana as a truly selfless hero much like Asteria (original owner of the armor) was.

The Finale would have Diana regain her powers once she defeats Max leaving Barbara powerless and VERY resentful toward Diana.

This would make the "Diana batted around by just wind" in the final confrontation with Max be more logical looking at least.

I thought WW 84 was.... well the first one was better. The first one is still much, MUCH better

Because fuck, did everyone making this movie just socially regress. The rape, which everyone knows about already, the stereotypical oil sheikah, and Diana's "life sucks but you got to move on from your problems" message. Like:

Person suffering from depression: I wish I was happy

Trafficking victim: I wish I was free.

Diana: Welp, gonna have to suck it up.

Also, 5 billion people, at the time, and NO ONE wished for like world peace or something? And what about wishes that contradict each other?

And then there's everything with Barbara. I'm all for fictional nerds being portrayed as evil and not underdogs who instantly deserves everything and then some but jeeze. Her issues weren't internal, it was literally everyone else around here. Her co-workers were acting like fucking teenagers to her. Her killing her attempted rapist is seen as her start of darkness. When Diana tried to sympathize with her it honestly came off as condescending and speaking from privilege. For context: Diana needed therapy. Therapy wouldn't work for Barbara because the world was out to get her.

Well, if you put it like that, of course it sounds overly simplistic and dismissive.

As for Barbara, it is mentioned that the wish is taking her empathy as the cost. I do wonder if maybe the movie would have been better off going with the evil take on an Adventure Archaeologist as she was originally depicted as. Youtuber La'Ron Readus had a video analyzing the character and how it deconstructs the "ugly duckling becomes beautiful swan" trope and how it is similar to yet different from Burton's Catwoman.

If they did more stuff with Max, I'd prefer it to be in the past anyway. He's always been a character-type fixed in the 80's.

If the International team was in the past, for example, they could have Ted Kord be Blue Beetle back then, and Jaime Reyes have the title in the present.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 9th 2021 at 9:40:19 AM

On further thought I feel like they could have added some kind of extra supernatural armaments. I don't know like some super-mooks or some B-lister who gets an upgrade to at least be the lieutenant to Max's security force under Max and Cheetah.

Like it ties into how the film does that annoying thing where it feels like the only supervillains the hero ever fights are the ones that show up in the movies, implying they fight no one else in the interim. Its especially egregious in Diana's case where she's been active for like 70 years and has apparently not encountered any other kind of supervillains.

It would justify the armor more. Instead of just fighting Cheetah she'd also have to get past superpowered mooks instead of just regular guys with guns, generating a gauntlet where enhancing armor would feel necessary.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 9th 2021 at 5:21:54 AM