42: Symbolism in fiction

As we know, 42 is the meaning of everything.

(I am aware the title sucks. IF YOU WANNA CHANGE IT GO AHEAD.)

TV Tropes being a website specialized in analyzing fiction of all kinds, I think it suits itself perfectly for the discussion of meaning. Actually, what I am referring to is what might be better referred to as symbolism. In the subject of stories; written, sung, told, drawn, or otherwise, we have core meanings that are pretty explicit. They might be An Aesop, they might be Anvilicious, but in either case creators have different means of getting their point across to us.

Some of them are not so explicit. Some of them are symbolic.

Symbolism is something that represents, stands for, or suggests an idea, belief, action or entity, and for the sake of avoiding discussing semantics (which has its own thread), we can agree that the symbolism we are to discuss here is to be something not explicitly said (unless it is a context outside the work, such as when there is Word of God confirmation from an interview) and we can contain our discussion to art and fiction.

Whether it is an interesting pattern that you found in a certain movie, a song that nags you, or a book you just read, this thread opens the possibilities to share your findings, ask your questions, or post some links related to the subject that might be worth discussing, or fun to share, or maybe you have succumbed to ennui and inertia drives you to copy paste everything tangentially related to TV Tropes forum threads in order to keep awake during the drab hours of the day.

Some links that I find speak about symbolism, meanings, and such are the Youtube channel Wisecrack in its series “Earthling Cinema” and “Thug Notes”, as well as a few articles on Cracked you can find yourself (You sloth).

Related tropes to read of are Faux Symbolism, Rule of Symbolism, Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory, World of Symbolism, and Freud Was Right, for example. There is also a Thread related to symbolism, but it is on the Writers Block forum, so it mostly seems to seek advice and help when writing, whereas this area of the forum is more about discussing it in a more broad sense.

Subjects that can be discussed, are for example:

• What the fuck is the meaning of Hotel California, by The Eagles? Or White Room, by Cream? Or X, by Y?
• What new symbols have been appearing in the media?
• Is symbolism a lost art, is it just sneakier, or is it still just as prevalent in our days?
• What the hell does Aszur even MEAN!?
• Hey guys! I have noticed that a certain motion/word/pattern in a thing I like might mean….blah blah blah. What do you think?
• Common symbolic tropes

Might be worth giving it a shot.

So how about it, Tropers? Can you tell me? Tell me the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?

edited 25th Aug '15 3:38:20 PM by Aszur

I think the title is probably quite misleading, but otherwise this is a very interesting and worthwhile thread and I'm sure we'll have a pleasant conversation here. I suggest we change the title to something like "Symbolism in Fiction", though - that way it's not referring to just a particular work. (Also, I don't think the 42 in the original is actually a symbol of anything. It's just surrealism for its own sake.)

It's symbolic of Douglas Adams being lousy at basic math. Six times nine, anyone?

Of course, one could argue that makes the supposed symbolism deeper. The ultimate answer to the ultimate question is mathematically incorrect, according to the mathematics we've developed. Does that say something about the nature of the universe, or our abilities and knowledge as a species? Food for thought.

Spoiler alert: Arthur Dent came out with the result because he was a product of the planet-based computer that was supposed to find the ultimate question. Thing is, the process was interfered with before it could resolve. Thus the question that does come out of Arthur Dent shouldn't be exactly correct; it's only supposed to be in the same general direction as the correct question. (Which it probably isn't.)

Tropes, works, even entire genres can symbolize something. There are often competing symbols associated with a body of work as well. The way American superhero comics symbolize both the heroic archtypes of a particular society, and represent the power fantasies of socially awkward adolescent males.

edited 25th Aug '15 7:05:14 PM by DeMarquis

Oh, come now. Think of 42, and think of the question that lead to the answer. Then think of the purpose of the thread.

I can and will happily rename it "42: Symbolism in fiction" if it makes the point more clear. As soon as someone tells me how to change the title cuz I dunno how lelelelelele

(The lelelele is a symmbol of my incompetence)

A mod will have to change the thread title.

Yeah, when I said "we" should change the title I was being nice by including you. I'll do the change. (The reason I want to do it is to deter people who are looking for a general chat about HHGTTG from entering this thread under false premises.)

I suspected that which is why my first post incldues the invitation to change it. But I thought it was a funny little motif there.

I WAS WRONG.

Anyways. For the topic. Anyone happen to know if Cream's White Room has a specific meaning? I have heard it is all over the place. Drugs. 'nam. Lost love.

Be it imagery of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, or Jesus Christ, I am going to strike this with lightning to see if something can rise from this.

Are you of the mind that modern fiction seems to not have as much symbolism in it as before?

I think of for example the differences between Lord of the Flies, to 50 Shades of Grey. No I am not saying that modern fiction has decayed in quality. But even most known, popular works seem to not be drawn to symbolism a lot. Look at George R.R Martin's Game of Thrones, Neil Gaiman's The Sandman (whom although makes liberal use of symbols, seems to use them as literal interpretations), J.K Rowling's Harry Potter, Stephen King seems to straight out use psychological terror instead of Vampires or Zombies that symbolize other real life terrors...

I am of the mind that modern fiction is styll as symbolism-laden as before, it is simply that they are difficult to discern because among other reasons:

• The authors' motifs may suffer from a Seinfeld Is Unfunny case
• We have not had as much time to study
• Some authors pursue more economic ideas rather than philosophical (which is fine)
• There is a bias in discussing popular fiction in a social context as it is in literary analytical one

I dunno what you guys think. I bring it up cuz' in discussion with other people we seem to have such disagreements.

I agree that it's not a case of modern fiction having less symbolism. In addition to the above reasons, there are also Very Important People who study "classics" and make a point of saying that literary analysis is something that can only really be applied to "classics". That kind of snobbery is old, dating back centuries, and a good part of academia still struggles with it.

And a lot of people tend to focus on certain, um, other matters. To pull an example out of the air, "Wrecking Ball" by Miley Cyrus. I heard the song, looked up a couple of things, and realized that there were multiple layers of symbolism at work (which really needs its own post to cover, so I'll do that if someone wants). And everyone else is going "Look at her, she's swinging around NAKED". Spectacle and scandal tend to trump symbolism, especially among people who don't have the time and energy to think about it.

I personally invite you to share your analysis of Hannah Montana's Wrecking Ball, nudes or not.

Also, another usbject occured to me. I am just going to throw it around here in case someone wants to pick it up at some time but. Maybe we could discuss a bit about the differences between themes and motifs, in the contxt of symbolism.

All righty then.

First, the nudity. Being nude (or naked, if you're the type to be pedantic about this next point) is frequently symbolic for vulnerability. (And Cyrus herself later confirmed this was the intent, so I'm not just guessing here.) So when is she shown as nude? When she's singing, either implied while she's standing there or explicit while she's riding on the titular wrecking ball. Since the song is sung entirely in past tense, the symbolism is that she's vulnerable now, but wasn't always so.

Then you take the clothing she was wearing, which was white. White is a common symbolic color of purity and innocence. Her losing it in the present help reinforce the vulnerability angle: she lost her purity and innocence in an effort to break the walls around the person she loved, and the process left her vulnerable. Which makes the whole thing start to look like a metaphor for throwing away your virginity, in the name of true love. (YMMV on the value of virginity, but that's what they seem to be aiming for.)

Now note that there's the sledgehammer. Obviously, the sledgehammer doesn't hit as hard a wrecking ball. She can and does use it to further knock down the wall once the wrecking ball has done some damage, but can't really do anything while the walls are intact. If you think of both as symbolic of different degrees of sexual flirting or relationships, this makes more sense. Sexual flirting wasn't breaking through the walls, so she had to go the extra step...and look what it did to her.

Now note that the wall encloses her on only three sides. This means she could have walked around the walls, but instead tried to break it down. Keeping with the sexual metaphor, this means she could have worked her way around to get past those walls, but instead tried to push straight through instead. No wonder their relationship crumbled; she pushed her lover into sex before he/she (the song isn't specific, and since Miley is publicly confirmed bi, well...) was ready.

But no, people just see a naked girl swinging around on a wrecking ball. It's no wonder Miley Cyrus went the route she did with her later songs and performances, focusing more and more on provocative dancing. Too many people couldn't see anything else there but that.

I ask this out of ignorance, but does this have to do with the lyrics of the song? I am not familiar with them myself.