The U.S. Culture(s) thread

The reason Puerto Rico isn't a state is because it'd almost certainly be a blue one if it was invited and the Republicans don't want that.

The whole civil liberties and freedom thing is very much a sham that the Right likes to hide behind.

edited 24th Mar '16 6:34:50 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?

Well, Puerto Rico has to vote inarguably positively to pursue statehood before Republicans in Congress can weigh in with their opinions. I've heard the ballot was worded confusingly, but PR's had a couple referendums on the issue already and it looks like the voting public is ambivalent about pursuing the issue.

There's also Guam, I think the Mariana Islands, and the American Virgin Islands. Probably a few others and a whole shitload of uninhabited islands that are territories of some sort. OH, American Samoa.

If memory serves, one of these smaller island groups did apply for statehood a while ago but the administration sent their proposed state constitution back because it violated the 14th amendment to the federal one. They didn't fix the issue in time before the application expired.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

As easy as it is to blame the Republican party for obstructionism, they aren't responsible for everything going "wrong".

Either way, unless you're willing to look at the cultural impact of such a thing, this line of discussion is better suited for the U.S. politics thread.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Would you mind pointing out what territories you're talking about specifically? Most US non-state territories are generally like that by choice; places like Puerto Rico could become states if they petitioned Congress for it (and Congress would look really bad if they denied the request without good reason, though that might not necessarily stop them), but they don't want to for whatever reason. My understanding is that most of them are generally happy to receive the benefits of being an American territory (protected by the American military, able to trade with/travel to the mainland US without going through customs, etc) without the obligations of being a US state (having to pay federal income tax is the big one).

For the record, the US only has five of those inhabited non-state territories: Puerto Rico, Guam, the US Virgin Islands, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa. We've also about a dozen other places considered US territory that have no permanent inhabitants.

Of course, if you want to talk about American imperialism, it's also important to note places that are sovereign countries, but have extremely close relationships with the US — often they're dependant on us for military protection (and we usually have a significant military presence there in the form of overseas bases). Depending on your level of cynicism and how strictly you want to define "empire", then places like Japan (formerly occupied by the US), the Philippines (formerly a territory of the US), Bahrain (an small country where we've had a major military presence since before it was an independent nation), and the Bahamas (an extremely small country that's a close neighbor with strong economic and financial ties) could all be considered under the influence of the "American empire".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Not to mention the UK.

While we certainly have a close relationship with the UK, as far as I'm aware we don't have a major military presence in the British isles, nor do I think you could legitimately suggest that the UK is part of the "American empire".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Two USAF bases (Lakenheath & Mildenhall), one base that is used some of the time by the USAF (Fairford, which also has a B-2 hangar), a large ammunition depot (Welford). There's quite a bit, and there was a lot more during the Cold War.

Keep Rolling On

It's probably not accurate to call the US a straight-up empire, but it could be argued to be a Hegemonic Empire.

edited 24th Mar '16 4:21:15 PM by Protagonist506

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

Do Not Do This Cool Thing exactly sums up why I don't feel much angst over America possibly turning into some sort of empire over time. The people with the most influence see it like that, so it just seems like a natural progression for a successful state, even if it started out as ostensibly democratic. I agitate for the removal of money from politics, am trying to get a proportional representation platform taken up by the local Democratic party, and rightly consider myself progressive, but I see some writing on the wall. It's mostly beyond us what happens to America as a whole.

That was actually Rome and its "conquests" from the end of the second Punic war up through the twilight of the republican era and the first century or so under the Augusti (probably a lot of other historical states too, if you're not as much of a Roman fanboy). When we color in the maps of classical Europe and Asia with an ominous, triumphant shade of red, we're leaving out the fine nature of their influence over those areas, so most assume it was simply military conquest which led to the coloration. Rome had treaties with the various civitates foederatae or "federated cities" which basically hammered out as protection from Persia and each other. Those states were allowed to mint their own currency, maintain their own (reduced) armies, and run their own legal jurisdictions within the small-E empire. Admittedly, they provided a levy for the Roman army, were garrisoned in turn, and didn't have any realistic options for kicking the Romans out of their countries (attempts at forming various leagues for just that purpose while the Romans were weakened by internal strife were brutally suppressed). In addition, being part of a large region with no internal trade restrictions was enormously beneficial to their merchant classes, so they were complicit in the Roman hegemony, even as it later gave way to straight-up Empire.

edited 24th Mar '16 5:10:42 PM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."

John Oliver did a segment on US territories and how they're abused, I'll try and find it.

Edit: found it.

edited 24th Mar '16 5:07:51 PM by Silasw

... I just linked the same thing at the end of the last page. :/

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

I can't get your one to play, how did you do the imbed?

I know why - I accidentally put a space inbetween 'youtube:' and the video code.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

I find it sort of hard to consider the situation "abuse" when they could get voting rights by applying for statehood and various votes have repeatedly shown the answer of whether or not they want statehood to be "meh". If they'd applied and been denied for a stupid reason, that'd be one thing, but that's not really the case.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Well some people have sued for the right to vote and been denied it based on an old ruling that claims they are savages who can't understand Anglo-Saxon principles. That seem like clear abuse to me. Plus regardless of them having the right to vote the lack of services (with VA services being in Hawaii) is deplorable.

It's a Supreme Court case, it sets legal precedent. Trying to dismiss it as the ravings and a racist lunatic from more than a century ago is stupid — the same logic could be used to dismiss the bill of rights, which was written and signed by a bunch of slave owners over two centuries ago. And the veteran services thing, while certainly terrible, is a completely separate issue from the question of voting rights.

Seriously though, I really don't see the issue. Want federal representation? Become a state. Now you have two senators, at least one representative, and your vote for president counts now. Of course, that also means being subject to all the responsibilities of statehood as well (like the full suite of federal taxes), so it's up to the people of individual territories whether that trade-off is worth it to them or not and they want to become states or remain territories.

So far they've opted to remain territories.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Separate but equal was a precedent (set by the same guy), it was still moved beyond, the government doesn't have to defend such a case, especially not by relying on a racist raving lunatic deceleration (it literally says that the people are savages who can't understand democracy), it's not like falling back on the bill of rights, it's like falling back on the 3/5th bit of the conetations so as to deny black people the right to vote. Hell the precedent doesn't even agree with the government, as it was said that it should only stand for a time.

Also Purto Rico can become a state, but seeing as it's vote in 2012 to change its current situation has still not resulted in the promised second referendum one can be petty sceptical, hell in not sure if the other territories can become states due to their size.

So far they don't seem to have had a choice, there's a reason the inhabited British oversees territories have referendums every so often and they're much less aligned with the U.K. then US territories are with the US.

edited 24th Mar '16 7:33:18 PM by Silasw

My understanding was that, the last time Puerto Rico held a referendum on its status in relation to the U.S., there was a slim majority who favored rejecting their current status as a U.S. territory, but those votes were split between people who wanted to become a U.S. state, and people who wanted to become an independent country. As a result, nothing happened.

By the way, Vermont has more of a French influence than the other New England states, correct? With the capital being named Montpelier after the place in France and everything. Vermont and Maine are also the only two New England (And Northeastern states in general) states that weren't any of the original colonies.

edited 7th May '16 8:28:59 PM by Bat178

If I recall, they were both parts of Mass. at the time of the Revolution.

Maine was claimed by Massachusetts, yeah. Vermont was (amusingly enough) claimed by both Massachusetts and New York.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I thought New Hampshire claimed Vermont rather than Mass.

Ah, you're right, I misremembered.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Vermont was actually a kind of sort of independent Republic during the Revolution, though that was more a device to avoid annexation by New York than any desire for Independence.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.