NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Wiki article link: Example Sectionectomy
There are also apparently varying levels of Example Sectionectomy; none on page, none on work pages, and no examples anywhere. I am sure using that one definition for all of these ideas is a bad idea.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
It's Eight Point Eight, not Eight dot Eight. 
edited 16th Mar '15 6:39:13 AM by BlackMage
Oversized Garden Ornament
Corrected.
Just for reference, Gnome, the ~form only works if you write it as ~Tropers/ before the handle name. And I am not sure if it works in opening posts.
NEP usually applies only for on-page examples. Off page wicks are still OK. Unless there is a Flame Bait banner. Then it doesn't belong there either.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Oversized Garden Ornament
OK. But Eight Point Eight is not a trope, but a fan speak term, so it should have no examples anywhere, right?
edited 16th Mar '15 6:47:35 AM by GnomeTitan
The Fan Speak term thing has always been problematic. Nowadays it's used too loosely to make for a good class of belong-there entries.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Oversized Garden Ornament
So did we have something to discuss or not? I just feel I made a fool of myself by starting this thread on false assumptions and will shut up for now.
Yeah, I do think we have something to discuss. People keep getting confused about whether "No examples, please" applies off-page too.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
The major issue here is that the wiki code doesn't support No Examples Please by actually blocking or flagging examples, so it's up to banners and common knowledge to enforce those. Further, the circumstances by which some of those articles had their examples removed were often vague as to whether it was intended that the bans apply to work articles as well.
Not only would we need a more robust system to support the bans, but we might have to go back and revisit all of the Example Sectionectomy articles to vote on which category they should fit in. It's not a small exercise.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oversized Garden Ornament
Maybe I'm not a fool then, but I'm obviously confused
If I remember the discussion from ATT correctly, both the "tropes" under discussion were such that they should have no examples anywhere. In such cases, I maintain that the banner is very confusing since it explicitly says that putting examples on YMMV pages is OK.
In the first case, one of the mods actually changed the banner to the flame bait banner (even though the trope wasn't flame bait) to eliminate this source of confusion, so apparently I wasn't alone in my opinion.
And I agree that we need a more robust system for enforcing this.
edited 16th Mar '15 7:32:40 AM by GnomeTitan
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
If I wasn't clear enough, I was essentially saying that we should go back and revisit all of the Example Sectionectomy articles, and reorganize that page to make the rules of each more clear.
I haven't reviewed Fan Speak pages to see if I would argue if they all belong as definition-only pages.
Hrm...
I only really like "Definition-only" and "No examples anywhere else", to be honest.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I've assembled Sandbox.Exampleless Pages, a list of all articles containing "no examples" statements.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
If I wasn't clear enough, I was essentially saying that we should go back and revisit all of the Example Sectionectomy articles, and reorganize that page to make the rules of each more clear.
I haven't reviewed Fan Speak pages to see if I would argue if they all belong as definition-only pages. EDIT: The page itself ahs no pages listed. I have therefore revised my opinion: any trope indexed as Fan Speak should be restricted to be a page definition only.
Hrm...
I only really like "Definition-only" and "No examples anywhere else", to be honest.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Officially intimidated
You could have edited your first post, you know. Take a look at the pencil icon.
Anyway, would it help to turn ES into an index?
135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
[[blush]] I thought I had clicked the edit button. [[blush]]
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
As people were noting at the time, contentious YMMV tropes sometimes work fine on work pages (which are policed more closely) even when they don't on the trope pages. So "no examples, please" removes the examples from the actual trope page, but leaves the wicks alone.
And the Flame Bait banner is the one for "no examples anywhere." I really don't think we need more than that, though adding a few more pages to that index might be necessary.
I'm with Discar. Examplelessness is mostly used when a trope page would either tend toward a cesspool of bile or get really creepy really fast (or cause advertiser issues). For example, we don't have examples on You Would Make a Great Model, but in-universe examples on other pages, not a problem.
Flame Bait is the banner that says "no examples off this page either."
I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Lost in Space
There is a wiki coding issue that keeps the Flame Bait banner from remaining on a trope if the trope is also on the subjective or trivia indexes, because those automatically cause the YMMV/Trivia banners to override it.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
You know, I'll go ahead and say that these problem articles need to be flagged as Flame Bait and kept off the YMMV indexes. They don't help getting rid of the Flame Bait, they just get it shipped off elsewhere, which is not better.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Oversized Garden Ornament
So what should be done about fanspeak terms? They are not flamebait but there seems to be consensus that they shouldn't be used as tropes either.
And, on a related note, should we have some sort of system to flag use of Useful Notes as tropes? It's fairly common to see things like, for example, a show set in Chicago to have Useful Notes/Chicago listed on the trope list. I've been told (by moderators, IIRC) that such usage is frowned upon.
edited 16th Mar '15 2:23:16 PM by GnomeTitan
Lost in Space
We should have such a system, but do not.
Fanspeak terms should not be used as tropes either, not because they are YMMV or Flame Bait, but because they are terminology, not tropes.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Let that happen in 2.0, though. It's not worthwhile to put such a system up now.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
Eh, adding Useful Notes and Flame Bait style banners and segregation code to the existing system wouldn't be too intensive, I would think. But Drewski and company have had their hands full.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The Unknown
Bump because this needs to happen.
Am I allowed to cut any Eight Point Eight entries I see since it isn't actually a trope, or do I have to wait until we make a decision?
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Within the last week or so, at least two separate threads have started on Ask The Tropers about the following question:
"Is it OK to put examples for trope X on the YMMV page of a work, if X is marked as 'No examples, please'?"
The latest thread was about Eight Point Eight (which is not a trope, but a fan speak term, which explains why it's NEP, but I'll use the word "trope" loosely here).
Edited: I seem to have been a bit confused about the exact meaning of NEP in general, but I think the point about the banner still applies for Eight Point Eight since it's a fan speak term and not a trope - see discussion below.
The general consensus seems to be that "no examples, please" means just that, and that YMMV pages are no exception. I agree with this.
But there seems to be some confusion, and I think it's because if a trope page is flagged as YMMV, it gets a banner at the top which says "Please don't list this on a work's page as a trope. Examples can go on the work's YMMV tab." and that is what people are seeing. That it's NEP is usually mentioned at the very bottom of the page, and is much less visible than the banner.
~Septimus Heap suggested it should be brought here. I think there are two issues:
1) Does NEP really mean NEP or is YMMV an exception? My take: Of course - otherwise, why make YMMV tropes NEP at all?
2) What should be done about the banner? My take: Don't display that banner at all for NEP tropes, because it's both irrelevant and confusing. Instead we should have a different banner saying that the trope is NEP and no examples should be put anywhere.
edited 16th Mar '15 6:49:59 AM by GnomeTitan