Karnak should definitely count. He never entered the Terrigen mists. His weakness-spotting power is pure martial arts.
In the seventies, Wonder Woman was a true martial artist of the Brought Down to Badass variety. She was taught Kung fu by an old master.
In general, though, Wonder Woman is a warrior, not an artist. If she trained hard enough, I'm sure she could give Shiva a run for her money. But Diana is more about fighting with heart than skill or technique.
Echo should be up there, seeing as how she can fight Daredevil to a standstill. Cyclops, Psylocke and Sage of the X Men are also in the higher tiers.
Also, is this strictly hand-to-hand? Or would weapons masters like Ras Al Ghul or The Swordsman count?
edited 21st Jul '14 8:38:06 PM by KingZeal
Mad Scientist Wannabe
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Wasn't her master a talking egg? Or was that her arch-enemy in those days? What was the deal with Egg-Fu?
Egg-fu was an arch-villain who worked for the Red Chinese, and was a horrible racist stereotype. I Ching, who came in a decade later or so, was also a racist stereotype, but of the Positive Discrimination type, being a blind martial arts teacher.
Mad Scientist Wannabe
But why was he a giant talking egg? I know this is comics, but some things just make you say... why?
Iron Fist actually does have superhuman status, thanks to his, um, iron fist. Shang-Chi isn't superhuman at all, he's just the Master of Kung Fu.
There's also Colleen Wing, from Marvel; she's actually routinely referred to as a samurai, and while she's not quite on the level of, say, Shang-Chi, she's definitely a high-level martial artist. Misty Knight, too, to an extent, but she mixes it up with more of a street fighting mindset.
An early Fantastic Four comic referred to Mr. Fantastic as an expert in judo. Not that it was ever referenced again after that.
Finesse, of Avengers Academy, has the same photographic reflexes Taskmaster does, so she's actually also an expert in martial arts.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Irritable Reptilian
You forgot Egg Fu's prehensile moustache.
As far as 'why'? Probably the same reason as the Beatles made 'I Am the Walrus'. It was the sixties, and if you were a creative type and not on drugs, you were probably a noticeable exception >.O
I can't say I'm familiar with Echo- I've heard the name, I think, but don't think I've read anything with her(?) in it.
I was mostly thinking hand-to-hand fighters with this- weaponsmasters opens things up in too many directions.
I was also limiting things to the more active fighters- Stick (Elektra and Daredevil's teacher), O-Sensei (the guy that taught Bronze Tiger), and the guys like that are being left out since there really isn't a lot of ways to fit them in to any kind of ranking.
So, speaking of rankings- curiousity time. I'd rank Shang Chi and/or Iron Fist as the absolute peak of the Marvel Universe martial arts ranking (Captain America or Wolverine might be close, but I don't think they've consistently been portrayed as being as hardcore into martial arts), and... with DC, I'm not quite as sure. Probably Bronze Tiger and Constantine Drakon as their pinnacle- I'd be very curious to see if those two have ever faced off.
Although if we're looking at all of time in DC, then pre-Crisis Karate Kid would be the single greatest comic-book martial artist ever. Dude could throw down with pre-Crisis Superboy using nothing but martial arts.
Highly-Visible Ninja EDIT- I know of Colleen Wing, actually, but I didn't include her for the same reason I didn't include Psylocke, Cyclops, or Nightcrawler. They're very, very good, but they're not on the same level as, say, Shang Chi.
Speaking of whom, it seems that Shang Chi isn't strictly a Badass Normal anymore- he apparently sprouted ability-boosting chi-powers similar to Iron Fist's at some point.
Further EDIT- I know that it was DCAU rather than the 'main' universe, but I can't shake the mental image of Wildcat beating Atomic Skull half to death in Justice League Unlimited. Given that Atomic Skull is a freaking Superman villain... O.o
Basically, Wildcat is the guy you send in when you need a pure human that hits like a runaway freight train. I think I'd rather get punched by Superman than him >.@
edited 21st Jul '14 10:36:27 PM by TeChameleon
This is a title.
Not familiar with Echo's background. I think it might be Daredevil-y.
But she's got photographic reflexes like Taskmaster. Also she's deaf. I believe she was the first Ronin.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
Shang Chi's always had the ability to channel his "chi", but only in non-obvious, human limitations ways. (Fight without rest, hit harder than expected, no-sell small injuries, lightning reflexes.) His new stuff is courtesy Tony Stark building him a costume that allows overt chi powers so he can hang with the Avengers. (Best part is if you steal the outfit, it won't give the thief superpowers.)
edited 22nd Jul '14 9:18:36 AM by SKJAM
Just a quick side note, of all the Characters listed Karate Kid is by far the most skilled. I doubt that any of the others listed could fight a Kryptonian to a standstill like Val did in his debut.
I'd give Karnak good odds, actually. And Danny Rand did kill a dragon in order to GET his powers.
Deranged X-Mas Figure
Which is bullcrap, but hey, it was both the Silver Age, and a teenage Jim Shooter, who probably didn't have the best handle on common sense just yet. The whole run was still better than most of what else DC was publishing back then though, this side of Doom Patrol.
edited 23rd Jul '14 4:44:15 PM by kkhohoho
Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
Val's had umpteen showings that equal that though, judo flipping Mon-El into deep space or dodging Speed Force Lightning *after* it hit.
Deranged X-Mas Figure
...
Okay, that doesn't make any darn sense.
Irritable Reptilian
... wait, he didn't just judo-flip Mon-El into deep space, he judo-flipped him clean into another star system! Because in that last scan, crazy!Mon-El is complaining about feeling weak all of a sudden, and then turns around and sees a red sun O.o
Deranged X-Mas Figure
Look, if this were a Fighting Shonuen series, I'd be all over that; getting super-powers just by training really darn hard is kind of the norm there. But as far as I can tell, that usually isn't the case in DC, so it's somewhat hard to swallow. But while we're on the subject, I just a read an old early 80's Paul Levitz issue of the Legion where, as a sort of pre-wedding ceremony, (KK and Princess Projecta are tieing the knot, don't you know,) a match is held where KK holds off both Timberwolf and freaking Superboy all by his lonesome. At the same time. All with just freaking Karate.
It's either freaking awesome, freaking ludicrous, or ludicrously awesome. I'm not sure which.
edited 27th Jul '14 7:44:41 AM by kkhohoho
Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
This is a title.
Karate Kid used karate to beat up logic and steal logic's lunch money. Logic isn't about to get in his way.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
I'd stick Nightwing on the list, personally.
Irritable Reptilian
I was hesitant to include Nightwing, honestly, because I was remembering a sequence from that storyline where the various Noun-Monkey schools of martial arts invaded Gotham and Nightwing got completely ripped a new one by Paper Monkey (although, admittedly, that was revealed to be Lady Shiva later...), after which Connor Hawke had to go save his butt. So that particular sequence suggests that the very best martial artists are an order of magnitude better than him, although how that lines up with Batman being able to survive Lady Shiva is something of an open question :/
Mad Scientist Wannabe
I choose to keep the part of the Nolanverse where Ra's Al Ghul trained him personally, and that's how come Batman's so skilled.
Therein lies a bit of my annoyance with these sorts of designations. One character may have been deemed the "greatest" something or other until some other writer comes along and decides otherwise, usually in an effort to justify the existence of a new or favorite character. Characters end up getting Worfed. Note how Batman used to get along just fine with just Robin and Alfred (and completely alone, originally). Now he's got a whole army of support staff.
For any "greatest" match-up, you have to look at how characters do a) outside their own title and b) when not written by their creator.
Reed Richards is the smartest human in Marvel not because Fantastic Four says so, but because so does every other comic. Others may be better in their particular field, but Reed is top dog overall.
Similarly, how good a fighter is Deadpool ? Sure, he wins alot in Deadpool but he can still take Wolverine in Wolverine comics. Ergo, Deadpool is a pretty damn good fighter. Lady Shiva is treated as being one of the DCU's top martial artists when ever anyone meets her, so she ranks.
Conversely, in his first appearence in Wolverine, Mr. X was near unbeatable. When he was used in Thunderbolts, he was very good, but not great. He was too reliant on his telepathy, thus he shouldn't rank.
Irritable Reptilian
Bear in mind that the Batcave used to be pretty much just that, too- a cave. It had a table with a chemistry set on it, a place to park the Batmobile, and that was about it, really. As the cave got more complex, it started to beggar the imagination as to exactly how Alfred was managing to maintain a huge mansion, a massive, multi-level secret lair loaded with ultratech, and doing stuff like, y'know, sleeping. Or eating :/ Poor bugger must've had a caffeine IV drip for a while there >.>
I was tinkering around with Scribblenauts: Unmasked, and just sort of generally geeking about with the DC characters, and ran across one I hadn't encountered before- a Green Arrow villain by name of Constantine Drakon, who to all appearances is the greatest martial artist (assuming we're going by 'Squash List' rules, anyhow- X has beaten Y, and Y beats Z, therefore X is more powerful than Z) the DCU has on offer.
That got me thinking about the various Charles Atlas Superpowered martial artists that are running around the Marvel and DC universes. Has there ever been a definitive tournament-type arc for just martial arts masters that anyone knows of? Could make for a kind of interesting one-shot storyline, and get together the various super-kung-fu-karate-savate-boxing-capoeira-whatever types that don't usually interact.
A couple of quick lists off the top of my head in no real order...
DC:
Not 100% on including King Snake there, but he does seem to be shown to be in the same bracket as Lady Shiva, from what I remember of his appearances. Sort of half-wondering if Wonder Woman should be in here too, given that she has significant skills, but she doesn't seem to fit on a list of 'pure' martial artists.
Marvel:
... Marvel is odd in that their higher-tier martial artists tend to bleed over into 'superhuman' status using nothing more than martial arts- I mean, I don't think that anyone is going to argue that Iron Fist or Shang Chi are pretty much pure martial artists with no 'super' from outside that, but at the same time, they're very clearly superhuman to a significant degree.
edited 21st Jul '14 3:49:14 PM by TeChameleon