ufotable's Fate/Stay Night

I like to think that the D luck Rank is like Fire Emblem luck stats are tied to which kind of person you are, like: Kiritsugu is a pragmatic bastard, so it took a hit!

As a more casual Fate fan, this whole conversation just seems pointless to me. Virtually none of the individual Master differences come into play in either Zero or what Fate Stay Night that I've seen, other than Shirou's handicap used to facilitate the sex scenes and Shinji's handicap used to make people hate him more.

You can say Tohsaka gives Saber more power, but as I recall, all she does for the rest of the route is fight assassin. Who is, you know, assassin.

Yes, unfortunately full-powered Saber doesn't get to do anything. And weak Saber kills three Servants. Oh, the irony.

I'd say that's more the fault of Nasu doing a bad job of showing how good a character is.

He's great at worfing someone to make someone else look better, but the rest of the time, he's botching it.

As I've said, the individual master difference is not all that overpowering. Saber under Kiritsugu wasn't all that worse than Saber under Rin^note some of her stats were better. even, even though Rin is a much more powerful mage. It only seems to make a huge difference when it is a shitty master, such as Shirou and Shinji.

Yeah. Saber get hits the hardest. We constantly have characters praising how great at combat Saber is, but that is rarely shown clearly. In Fate Stay Night, only her fight against Berserker early in UBW showcased that well, with her having the upper hand against an overwhelmingly more powerful enemy.

To be fair, it is not just Nasu. Eary in Fate Zero there was the same problem. Her first fight against Lancer had other character commenting on how much better she was than Lancer, since they were roughly tied but he was getting progressively more tired while she was not. But since he still kinda won in the end, it still seemed like he was the better fighter. Made worse in the anime, when it was never made clear she was winning before taking that first blow.

edited 21st Apr '15 7:34:34 PM by Heatth

Judge: Yeah, honestly, it doesn't really matter at all.

New theory: Zero!Lancer's Luck was so bad that it brought down the luck of whoever met him first.

Yeah, that is true. And her first fight with Caster went the same way. She at least still got to beat C'thulhu, Rider and Berserker in the end though.

Pffft, the biggest Worf is obviously Berserker, who's only role is to get hyped and the get beaten to hype someone else.

Yeeeeeaaaaah, Berserker really gets it bad outside of the Fate route, and even there he gets killed several times in one instant.

Speaking of Berserker getting Worfed (heaven's feel) How does a Nine Bullet Revolver defeat Corrupted Berserker if he has twelve lives?

Well, he might have lost some lives. Or the fact that all his skin had melted off might have been pretty important.

The shots took off more lives then one each? ala Caliburn taking off like 6+ lives in one attack

Well I thought that Saber Alter's Excalibur had already taken a lot of lives off of him? Also, I do love Nine Lives Blade Works due to how it's set up, but yeah, it doesn't exactly help with how much Worf Berserker goes through.

Don't forget that Lancer won that fight because he out-smarted her. That had nothing to do with their fighting power. If Lancer is the better fighter, it's because he's the better strategist, not the more powerful.

Diarmuid is explicitly said by Nasu to be a Servant suited for fighting against stronger Servants. Not always a guarantee win just specced with abilities to make it easier.

He is basically a stronger Archer.

Mmm, I can kind of see that. Diarmuid's got a good deal of Boring, but Practical to him. His noble phantasm's give him some good special abilities (anti-magic, unhealable wounds, and a kind of specialized mind control from his mole), none of which require either a huge amount of mana or time to use. Abilities like Ionian Hetaroi and Berserker's lives would ruin him, but at least he can put up a fight.

I know. My point is that, in the anime, it really didn't seem Saber was the most skilled fighter. They seemed to be equivalent to each other until the point in which Lancer won. So, for the anime audience, at best, Saber was as skilled as Lancer. But many people just perceived that he was better, since he was the victor. He seemed the best fighter, even if that was not the truth.

In the novel, meanwhile, it was clearly said Saber had the upper hand the whole time. If I remember right, that information was given clumsily, by Combat Commentator nearby, but was still there. So even if it didn't feel much like it, at last the reader was told Saber was the most skilled one.

edited 23rd Apr '15 12:33:04 PM by Heatth

Gil's canon stats in CCC are identical to his stats under Tokiomi.

Spoilers

And he was born to be◊

He's a Dream Breaker, Love Maker Heart Taker]

Yes, but the point of Saber Arturia being the best Servant isn't just her sword skills, but that she also has her mana boost skill and a mean offensive Noble Phantasm (and a Game-Breaker defensive Noble Phantasm, which is why she is only equipped with it once, at the very end).

It is all of those combined. She is a beast. But the story often don't show this effectively. And the Zero anime was even worse in that one particular example.

She isn't the best Servant to begin with. Not even close, really.

But she's not a bad one either. Something that doesn't get shown very often.

It's excused for the most part in Fate (less so in UBW where she's still having a hard time against Kojiro despite being at full power), but in Zero, where she has a good master for the majority of the story, she should be looking much better, but the Lancer fight was botched and she came off as weaker.

Saber being a strong servant doesn't exclude Lancer from being strong, either.