ufotable's Fate/Stay Night

Not everyone. I think Zero is grimdark nonsense that is completely at odds with the tone of the rest of the series.

However, if you only plan on watching the anime then it works as an entry point.

Though I think its good, it suffer from They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character by the boat loads. In the end of this battle royal the only ones who affect the war are Emiya, Tokiamo, Gilgamesh and Kirei.

Eevn the best characters in the whole franchise, Iskandar, ends up contributing little to the plot.

If I could I'd recommend you to play through the original VN as Zero spoils a lot of interesting things in Heaven's Feel. But otherwise, Zero > UBW series > Heaven's Feel movie with a quick read-through of the synopsis of the Fate route at some point in between.

@Dark Hunter

- Yep, not sure on if it takes place there. Although the show gives some cultural aspects on eating specific types of food.

edited 26th Jan '18 4:36:40 PM by Ominae

Essentially, from what I know, Zero is the best executed anime (not least because it doesn't run on Idiot Plot at the most excruciating moments like UBW) but has acquired a bad rep with the dedicated Nasuverse fanbase for... I don't know why.

Sure it's dark but I don't actually think it's really that darker than UBW.

That's kind of spoiling it since the big deal starting out is that you don't know who will do what, who will die and who will win.

edited 26th Jan '18 4:45:32 PM by Sigilbreaker26

You mean besides the bullshit with Tokiomi, Aoi and Kariya.

Learn to talk idiots!

I don't like it because I don't like Urobuchi and the stories and characters that he writes.

It's Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: The Series. Stay Night at least has likable characters who don't get screwed over because it thinks idealism is for kids.

You only get "idealism is for kids" from Fate/Zero if you completely ignore the last few episodes deconstructing that view. Likable characters is debatable (mainly because Waver and Iskendar bring the likability index up so much for FZ).

edited 26th Jan '18 5:12:28 PM by Sigilbreaker26

There was a bit of that but it does not immediately absolve the endless wave of cynicism that preceded it.

I used to like Iskandar but more and more I realize just how much of a terrible person he is.

Waver's alright though, I have no issues with him.

Endless wave of cynicism is just there to make the eventual judgement cathartic.

Is he terrible? He's Alexander the Great. He dreams big, and doesn't begrudge other people for dreaming bigger. He's not perfect, but he's likable. I guess you could invoke Historical Hero Upgrade but really when you get that far back in the past it's really hard to judge his actions.

edited 26th Jan '18 5:22:45 PM by Sigilbreaker26

Actually, I don't think missing Studio DEEN's Fate/Stay Night anime is a good idea. It gives proper closure to Saber's story and has a few very satisfying moments like Archer vs Berserker fight, Saber vs Rider fight, Shinji getting killed, Saber kicking Gil's ass (and Saber kicking ass in general, she barely gets to do anything in UBW), Shirou's final showdown with Kirei, Ilya living in Emiya household.

Also, Ufotable's UBW anime, gorgeous as it is, can be very boring sometimes. I've heard people say that DEEN's UBW movie worked better for them because it compressed the plot as opposed to the anime, that dragged it forever.

Being likable and being a good person are not the same thing. He gets historical hero upgraded worse than Nero.

Also I genuinely do not see what you mean by a cathartic judgement. Kiritsugu is the only one who gets told off and while he's bad, he is not the worst person there. Gilgamesh and Kirei win, everyone else loses, and its up to the characters who aren't massive screw-ups to save the day in Stay Night.

While I'm lukewarm on the Studio DEEN anime, you just summed up exactly why I like Fate more than Heaven's Feel.

edited 26th Jan '18 5:30:33 PM by LordVatek

Alexander I can tell you for a fact does *not* get upgraded more than Nero. Alexander had his bad points and his good; he was a conqueror, but he also had grand visions for trying to unite the Persian and Greek cultures, he devolved into a drunken mess by the end, he tried his hand at philosophy, etc.

Nero was sort of an okay ruler when he left ruling to other people and when he decided to take the reigns he proved to be utterly sadistic and grandiosely incompetent. The best thing you can say about Nero is that "he didn't cock up that much compared to some other Roman emperors".

Also, that ending is just doomed by canon. That's like saying the prequel trilogy is depressing because Darth Vader and the Emperor have to win by the end.

edited 26th Jan '18 5:33:41 PM by Sigilbreaker26

Wait I'm curious, what about Iskandar's hero upgrade makes him worse than Empress Big-Boobed "Let me suck your dick Praetor & then brag about myself" Waifu?

edited 26th Jan '18 5:34:48 PM by slimcoder

Nero was bad, don't get me wrong but her historical reputation is mostly just an elephant in the room. At least Fate/EXTRA Nero. With Iskandar his stated goals, showing him to be benevolent, are very different from what actually happened. He sold several tens of thousands of the people he conquered into slavery, not to mention copious amounts of pillaging.

As far as Fate/Zero proper, he's a massive hypocrite in his speech to Saber.

edited 26th Jan '18 5:39:53 PM by LordVatek

Slavery and pillaging was sort of par for the course for ancient conquerors, and the attitude he showed towards the cultures he was coming into contact with is pretty much a big case of Fair for Its Day.

I do agree that he's being a hypocrite (since his solution didn't work either, since his empire fell apart as well) to Saber, and I do wish she'd stand up for herself more in Zero rather than letting Kiritsugu and Iskander walk all over her in their various conversations.

However, he does make a pretty important point that she should learn to live with her decisions rather than try and focus so much on changing the past.

edited 26th Jan '18 5:41:40 PM by Sigilbreaker26

I agree with the last point but going from a purely writing standpoint, it made no sense. She learns that lesson in Stay Night so she ends up just completely ignoring it here anyway.

Iskander legit wanted to help Saber but was the wrong person to do so and viewed it through the patronizing lens of her being a little girl, which Shirou struggles with and developed out of

I still wish for the ufo treatment of Fate route. I also feel that when more material books and the original VN is localized officially, a lot of misconceptions will be cleared up.

Or not

I liked Fate/Zero.

...that's about all I have to contribute to the conversation. I just enjoyed what it did, and I think the darkness and themes of futility contribute very well to the themes found in UBW.

Besides it's not like the original fate routes weren't dark themselves. The only difference is that Zero's themes were about self-imposed futility while Fate/SN proper was mostly about proving oneself against all odds and overcoming that futility.

Well, the point of the Banquet of Kings was Iskandar and Gilgamesh bully Saber. She lost that argument because she was supposed to lose it (hence not even being allowed to defend herself properly). A big part of that story was just stomping her into paste to ensure her proper mindset in FSN proper. Sure, she made her mistakes, but the deck was stacked against her in Zero.

I agree. I mean, my original point was that Iskandar was a jerk.

As for the dark tone of both Stay Night and Zero I just think that the former's moments of levity are a greatly appreciated asset that Zero lacks in its second season and suffers for.

edited 26th Jan '18 10:44:47 PM by LordVatek

Iskandar is alright. It's easy to get caught up in his charisma and forget that he's a self admitted brutal thug who doesn't really give a damn about the people he rules over. That's the only thing that makes him somewhat interesting for me. The thing I don't get is why he has a Neutral Good alignment, but then alignments have never made any sense in this series.

Also, Vatek, the story doesn't really shy away from acknowledging that he's kind of a bastard. It's just that nobody dwells on it.

FSN's moments of levity range from legitimately funny to obnoxious to downright offensive. And sometimes they caused problems with the pacing (from what I remember, there were too many household scenes in Fate route and not enough of them in UBW route).

Iskander has the worst King method out of all of them. He's good at conquering, yes, at forming a brotherhood among warriors, yes, but actually ruling? No. Alexander was an amazing general but an awful ruler, and was extremely self-absorbed to boot. If anything, all three of the Kings were wrong. Saber was too detached and aloof, Rider is too boisterous and airheaded and self-absorbed, and Gilgamesh was way too self-absorbed, though he had the right idea that a King should bear the weight of the world's woes so that his subjects don't have to.