Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

The Rachni and the Geth should meet. No need for candles and roses, but yeah.

They are a bit of a hive mind, hard to connect to. The whole deal of the Leviathan and the Prothean messing up with them would also have to affected them.

I still think Grunt's mission in 3 should had taken place in Suen and not in the neighbouring cluster, by the way.

And, a damn shame a fourth game in the series wouldn't involve a post-Reaper galaxy, getting down to each homeworld and see the effects of Shepard's actions.

I agree with Eri. I am interested in seeing Palaven at least.

Probably too hard to pull off because of all the different choices during the trilogy. There is an advantage to having a more linear plot.

Well, two separate maps (genocide happens/doesn't happen), and pretty much done.

After seeing the slides at the end of the extended cut, it is feasible.

So for the span of the entire trilogy, I've been taking all the extra miles to resolve the Geth/Quarian war peacefully since I must admit I do admire both factions. After having to deal with a nightmarish amount of Geth Primes and Rocket Launchers, as well as an annoying reaper fight, I finally managed to take the third option and ended the conflict without either side dying...but damn I hated how they structured some of the dialogue at the start to make it seem like it's stuck in Either/Or. Let's just say a videogame hasn't punched me in the feels since the end of KOTOR.

The Geth/Quarian peace as the way it's done feels sort of cheesy to me. It feels too easy, abrupt, sugar coated, unnatural, etc. I'm glad it's there so that I don't have to commit fucking genocide on races that don't deserve it (only race that deserves genocide are the Reapers, murderous assholes). And it's one of the only times ME 3 doesn't glorify pointless death for the sake of it. It would have been nice to hear all the internal problems that came about of of two races that where at war for hundreds of years that all of sudden became allies. Plus it would be nice to to arrest or kill Han'Gerrel for being a genocidal hothead that doesn't consider the safety of his own people. Anyways the Rannoch arc, while being decent at best, was weird and seems sort of forced. The Geth betray their character and the Quarians (at least Xen, Gerrel, Raan, and their supporters) act ridiculously stupid and suicidal just to get Rannich back. Why they choose to do it during the Reaper invasion as well is beyond me. Seriously, besides Tali and maybe Koris and his supporters, all the Geth and Quarians act like fools int Rannoch arc. This entire arc only exists to bring a hasty end to the Geth/Quarian conflict and a "big", melodramatic, genocidal "choice" to the game. I would gladly help the Quarians find a new dextro aminic acid home world as long as it stops this dumb arc and the Quarian's suicidal hate of the Geth. Yeah, it will take a long time for them to adapt to it, but it's as I say to Tali, at least they'll have a permanent home that won't cause genocide of their entire race. Getting back to the peace option though, at least it's one of the few times that the "we have to stand together" themes of the series actually shows up in ME 3. It feels good to have Take That to ME 3's melodrama and "artistic integrity" (integrity? ME 3? Yeah right!). It's nice not to have fucking forced death of everything. And I know I ranted and no one cares about what I think. I also know that no one likes it when I speak my forceful opinions and that I should be sorry for saying them.

edited 27th May '15 3:54:49 PM by KingFeraligatr

Both Rannoch and the Suicide Mission are parts where I don't feel well with me at all if I don't make it right. Congratulations!

Also, good moment for side missions and DLC (except the Citadel party, which won't be complete until right before the point of no return).

EDIT: Feraligatr, the problem is not your opinions (although making your opinions public makes them open for criticism). The problem is the zeal; relax, throw in some paragraphs so they are more legible, and understand that people have the right to disagree with you, and not because of that they are wrong (took me years to learn to do that, and I still slip from that far more often than I'd like).

edited 27th May '15 3:56:43 PM by Eriorguez

The problem is that it seems like everyone disagrees with me. I like a mod, I got cut on for not playing vanilla. I dislike a certain lot point or something? I can called out for not supporting Bioware's so called "vision" (BW had no vision, they just did stuff that they thought cool). Also the subjects usually go to subjects that I either feel strongly about or can't fill in anything for. So unless it's the technical side of things, I can't really talk about anything else without feeling pressure on me.

And about the suicide mission, yeah, it feels great to get everyone out, but it's also cheesy to do so. I mean they call it a suicide mission, you're going to to expect to lose people. The only thing keeping me from supporting a harder suicide mission with forced deaths is Garrus being at "risk". Remove him being at any sort of risk from him being perma lost, and I'll likely jump on the "we needed a harder SM" train. There's more than one reason I have a character tier system for ME 2's SM, including a "disposable" one. It's so I can lose people and not feel like an ass and still have the characters I like survive (and ofc Garrus always survives. ME wouldn't be the same without him.).

edited 27th May '15 11:33:06 PM by KingFeraligatr

I wish the Suicide Mission was harder, although I'd gladly have it harder at the cost of putting Garrus at risk. Hey, wouldn't feel like loss if it only involved killing characters I didn't care about. I don't know about forced deaths specifically. If you had "forced deaths", ideally I'd want the deaths themselves to vary depending on what you do, even if it means there's always one death (preferably one that makes sense, Miranda doesn't arbitrarily suddenly get shot just because half an hour ago you managed to stop Jack being shot in a completely unrelated part). Sort of like a more subtle Virmire, perhaps.

I'd be perfectly fine with everyone living as well, though I really wish it were harder. You might slip up and get someone killed your first game, but on replays you almost have to deliberately get someone killed and the options are fairly obvious.

While I think it's fairly clear Mass Effect was largely written on the go and certain bits like Shepard's death seem there just to have a cool opening, and while I think it was largely written as a semi-powerfantasy, I think it'd be wrong to say Bio Ware didn't have a "vision". It's kind of a sloppy and all-over-the-place vision, and it was lacking when it came to concepting the overall trilogy, but they clearly had something. They spent quite some time (I don't have a figure here) just creating the entire world, and the questions raised, the deconstructions, the ethical questions of the Genophage and the sides given by Mordin and Wrex, any of that is deliberate.

It's heavily flawed, but it wasn't entirely whatever seemed cool.

In my ME 2 and 3 rewrite, I implemented much harder Suicide Mission like final missions. At the end of NME 2, Shepard and their allies are attack the enemy Geth's primary base to stop them from invading and contacting the Reapers hibernating in dark space to wake up and start coming. During said mission, it would be almost impossible to keep all of Shepard's losable squadmates (at that point) alive and it would be impossible to keep all your accumulated allies alive. The losable squaddies would even switch to a different form of the knockout system for that mission only, allowing them to be lost even in normal gameplay. And at the end of NME 3 during one of the final attack options (attacking the hibernating Reapers in dark space with Shepard's beefed up fleet and allies), you could lose anyone besides Garrus, who decides to hang back to coordinate the allies by the Citadel (and to give the player an ending narration regardless). In fact, you would lose people regardless, because you're facing the dam Reapers. I know people don't like me to talk about my rewrite idea, but I like it and it fascinates me.

I have a bit of a rewrite/AU idea too, and mine involves removing Liara from the entire equation with Shepard's death (and possibly removing the death of Shepard entirely and just putting her in a coma, because seriously why the fuck would you bring up such a serious subject matter and then drop it like a hot potato?) and Shepard and Miranda getting into a competition to see who is more efficient at saving the human colonists.

Mine goes way off the rails from what Bioware did. It's its own separate canon now. When you use only ME 1 as the only existing BW canon as a base and when your new main goal is using the Citadel relay to stop the Reapers forever and when you want a better thought out series, you tend to vary greatly form BW's canon.

I think it's important not to try and force a relationship in an RPG, generally speaking. It can work, looking at a game like The Walking Dead (admittedly not an RPG, but in this regard it's very similar to a Bio Ware-style game) which is largely centred on Lee's father-figuring to Clementine, but this works better with a heavily defined protagonist. I've never met anyone who dislikes Garrus, but giving him the ending narration seems wrong — it's reliant on the player having a deep, personal connection, to a point of favouritism, to this one squadmate.

A character like Hackett (a relatively neutral figure) or Anderson (a mentor figure and part of the series' opening, regardless of personal attachment) would workbetter. Or you could try something really dynamic (squadmate used the most does the narration, perhaps).

He's only there so you always have someone to give an ending narration, he wouldn't strictly be the only on to do so. Shepard's friends, best friend, LI, allies, etc. would also fill in if they're alive. Garrus is guaranteed to to survive to that point (along with Liara and the VS at least). Basically I want someone left behind to give some sort of a narration in case the player really fucks up. (I'm sorry, my rewrite is still in pre alpha stages and hasn't been revised yet. I need to finish my initial document someday)

edited 27th May '15 6:58:50 PM by KingFeraligatr

My semi-rewrite completely goes off the rails entirely once ME 3 rolls around because:

• Shepard never joined Cerberus in the first place, that's just an incorrect rumor
• Shepard never did the Arrival mission because she refused to do anything "as a favor to Hackett" since she doesn't like the guy in the first place

More of the details are fuzzy, but I think I'm leaning towards splitting the quarians into factions, the ones that favor peace with the geth and the ones who want to fight them, and the ones who favor peace manage to go back to Rannoch. Eventually the ones who favor war change their minds or accept that they can't attack now so they'll bide their time. It makes more sense to me for the peace to happen over time rather than by just Shepard yelling on a comm.

I'd have to say, refusing to do Arrival on the basis that you dislike Hackett is rather selfish and fairly inconsistent with how Shepard is characterized, especially if they saved the Council. Hackett clearly states that Dr. Kenson found evidence of an imminent invasion by the Reapers. I myself may dislike Hackett and the Alliance for what they did to sideline Shepard like that, but ignoring a possible invasion is just out of character for Shepard, especially when they already went rogue as a Spectre in order to stop Saren and Sovereign on Ilos.

Basic synopsis and justification of my rewrite idea (copied because I'm lazy):

"Mass Effect 2/3 total rewrite: Mass Effect and me have a strange relationship. I both like it and utterly despise it at the same time. I occasionally read well reasoned reviews, breakdowns, posts, etc. of why the entire series sucks, especially 2 and 3. I one day figured that I should draft up my own total rewrite of of ME 2/3 (I called them NME 2 and NME 3 (NME = New Mass Effect)). I use only ME 1 as a a base for canon (speaking that it holds up the best at least storywise and at the time I was coming up with the idea was the only objectively good ME to me. I now know ME 1 is objectively shitty as well) and totally removed any other canon after that (Bioware's ME 2 and 3 are still pools for ideas, but they don't actually ever happen in my rewrite.). The new major plot point is figuring out how to use the Citadel relay as a way to permanently destroy the Reapers on the other side, who are currently in hibernation in dark space. All the while, Shepard and co. must fight off the Geth faction that where allied with Sovereign and Saren in ME 1 and stop them from contacting the Reapers, among other things. Other main goals would be making allies, training and building relations with your crew and squad, finding out the secrets of Reaper tech, finding out about and exploring the galaxy, improving your own and your allies' tech, and other things. Among new features and in no concern if they are substantial or not include: diplomacy; expanding squad interactions, including for the possibility of them leaving you entirely and just helping with the project in general; hybrid overheat/thermal clip weapons; downplaying the romance mechanic (unfortunately I can't remove it due me being bound by ME 1) and bringing in a "friendship" mechanic, including the possibility of being "best friends" with squadmate or major crewmmate; playing as squaddies; a more open and sandboxish approach to handling the goals; and many more that I'm too lazy to post. NME 2 and 3 would likely many years (maybe even a decade or two) to think out and make but given the objective quality of Bioware's ME trilogy, it might be worth the risk and seems like it could be awesome. I unfortunately do not have my initial design doc even ready and due to me being lazy and me having a couple months where I outright despised the series. I also do not have it completely thought out, especially the basic story, but my intention was always to have others help make up ideas, make them make sense, and make them flow well and logically. This is one of my most worked on ideas even though I know many would hate the idea; tell me to focus my energy on better creations; etc. Maybe I want and excuse to actually like the series on objective terms and actually impress the people who critically analyze Mass Effect and newer games (they're usually right)."

I understand, but I think everyone's Shepard is different. If you don't think it would be possible that Shepard wouldn't go to Aratoht, I believe my Shepard would not go there alone under any circumstances, because my Shepard does not do favors for the Alliance even in the first game.

Also, again, the opinions of my Shepard are not mine. I am playing a character, not myself. Please remember that.

PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS.

edited 27th May '15 7:58:37 PM by CalamityJane

I have problems with that.

A good rule of thumb is to count periods. After counting five in a row, make a new paragraph

No offense but your Shepard sounds pretty petty.

Yeah. Hackett comes to Shepard with information that could be very useful in stopping the Reapers, and they just go "Nah, fuck that. I think you're kind of a jerk."

Anderson was wrong. That is not the kind of person that can protect the galaxy.

Anyone have any feedback for my rewrite idea that doesn't have to do with grammar or spelling?

Going back to the Rannoch discussion, I agree it was way too easy to resolve. The whole arc was done poorly, frankly. There's the way it treats the geth as perfect little innocent angels who just wanted to be helpful, which glosses over the war crimes they absolutely committed in order to bring the quarian population down to just a few million. There's the Pinocchio motivation of the geth wanting to be Real Boys, and accepting Reaper technology to do it.

I also feel like the position of the pro-war quarians could've been presented much better. It doesn't have to be a viewpoint we agree with, but it should be a viewpoint that's actually laid out.

But the big thing is the choices. We end up with three potential choices: Kill the geth, kill the quarians, make peace. I feel like there should be five choices: Kill the geth, kill the quarians, enslave the geth, force the quarians to leave, make peace. Wiping out a race would be the default - make the wrong choices in 2 and 3, those are your only choices. Slavery and forced retreat would be about as difficult as making peace was. And then actually making peace would be extremely difficult. Completely impossible for anyone who hadn't played 2, and maybe not even possible for anyone who hadn't played 1. Yeah yeah, it would fuck over PS 3 players, since 1 hadn't been released on the PS 3 at that point. But so what? A reward for people who played the whole trilogy. What's wrong with that?

I really do not want to commit genocide on a race of badass robots and a race that doesn't deserve it (Quarians). As I said, the Rannoch arc seems FORCED and unnatural. The fact that many characters take brain damage doesn't help.

And rewards for playing the entire trilogy? Yeah, there should've been more things like that. It would reward loyalty and perseverance. It's impossible to get a Golden Ending in NME 3 without playing through the entire trilogy (and given the circumstances, it's already nigh impossible to get a Golden Ending anyways).

edited 27th May '15 11:33:44 PM by KingFeraligatr