Game of Thrones episode 03x03 - the scene between Jaime and Cersei

On various pages on the Game of Thrones section on this website, many users have posted that the scene between Jaime and Cersei is a rape scene. However, it's not a rape scene. Word of God has stated it was part of a much longer sex scene that had been cropped and cut short. Most importantly, Word of God has stated that it's not a rape scene.

However, it's still being reported as a rape scene on this website. And when I tried to refute and correct the users who've promoted it as a rape scene, I was told I was wrong and what Word of God had to say made no difference. They saw it as a rape scene and because they believe it to be a rape scene they're allowing these entries to stand.

But it's not a rape scene, and to keep referring to it as a rape scene is spreading a falsehood. I also don't like that they do not accept the explanation of Word of God over the scene just because it doesn't match their perception of the scene.

So am I within my rights to alter these entries so they reflect the reality of the show and not the opinions of users?

I also don't like that they do not accept the explanation of Word of God over the scene just because it doesn't match their perception of the scene.

Well, here's your problem. As I said in the discussio tab, we base our troping upon what happens in the work shown. Word of God is a secondary concern, because what they say and what the work ends up looking as is not alwys the same.

If you go by that logic, then any number of conclusions can be brought about anything. Like in the series Naruto, one could easily say that Naruto and Sakura love each other based upon how they interact with each other. But by your logic, if Word of God suddenly came out and said that Naruto was gay with Sasuke, then people could still post here that Naruto and Sakura love each other because of how it's perceived in the work. No matter if canonically Naruto was gay.

With Jaime and Cersei, this is about the fact that people are calling Jaime a rapist. He's not a rapist. It's not in his character to be a rapist. What's going on in the scene between Jaime and Cersei is up for interpretation, but to call it a rape scene is purely an opinion. And it's a false opinion.

So I don't understand why people are allowed to keep promoting this falsehood as fact.

Well no, because you can objectively tell what happens in a work. A house is a house, for example.

Also, if Naruto loves Sasuke in work, it will be cited as such here.

Then there should be no problem with me saying that Jaime didn't rape Cersei. Because that's an absolute fact.

If the author suddenly decided that Naruto and Sasuke were gay, yet didn't actually show this in the actual work, then we wouldn't take that as fact. We would mention that what the author claimed, of course, but we wouldn't actually take it as being fully canonical. Because it literally never came up in the actual work. We only care about the actual work.

I'll agree that it wasn't really in character for Jaime to do that — but this is irrelevant. Sometimes writers mess up. Whether they messed up or not doesn't matter, if it still happens in said work, we note it as being so.

Also, stop stating it as being 'absolute fact' despite not actually giving any evidence about the actual scene. Cersei was obviously against it, therefore it was rape. There is no ambiguity here. 'There was a cut scene' is at the very least worth noting, in say, the trvia section, but still irrelevant because it didn't actually make the cut.

I'm having a really hard time understanding what you're saying. So whatever a creator says about their own work doesn't matter?

I'll give you plenty of evidence that it wasn't a rape scene. Cersei kept pulling him back in for more kisses. She tried to take his clothes off. She was refusing him with her voice, but it didn't match her body language. And in the full scene which was not shown on television, she still pulled him in and wrapped her legs around him.

All of this describes a consensual sex scene, albeit rough sex. That, and Word of God said it wasn't.

It matters so far as it can be listed on Word of God. But yeah, it doesn't matter for our trope lists.

This saddens me. The whole "Jaime raped Cersei" idea is false and yet you guys will promote it on this website as fact. No wonder people get into shipping wars here.

No, shipping wars begin because some people think that their favourite ship is the Only True Thing and that everyone else isn't allowed to mention their idea. What is canon sometimes isn't even in the discussion - a lot of shipping stuff is fan preferences that is not in any way affected by canon.

I link you to Death of the Author.

Honestly, I don't remember seeing any of what you're saying. Far as I could see, it was all pretty non-consensual — and again, the deleted scene does not matter because it did not actually make the cut. I'll agree that it didn't come off as they intended, but as we've stated many times, that's irrelevant.

I have a feeling we're just going to go around in circles if we continue this.

Well, if you guys are going to let this falsehood of Jaime raping Cersei to stand on this website, then I'm going to post in each of these entries the fact that this idea is only a matter of opinion and contradicts what Word of God says about the subject manner.

No. The site is not a discussion board. You don't get to add your objections on the main articles.

Oh, but you'll allow opinions to be presented as fact. Classy.

I'm done with this.

Look, Shasarazade, as far as the rest of us are concerned, you might as well be going "This whole 2 + 2 = 4 idea is false because my math teacher says that it equals five."

We work by consensus here, the consensus of 99.999999999% of the viewers is that the scene as depicted is flat-out rape. You can reject that as a personal view, but trying to enforce this view on the rest of the fandom just ain't gonna happen.

While the majority is not automatically right, when everyone else in the universe is disagreeing with my perception, I normally reevaluate it.

Here's the way it works:

• The tropes that are listed in the work's page are the things that the audience sees when they take i the work, standing alone. If it looked like a Rape Scene, and it played out like a Rape Scene, Then it's listed as a Rape Scene. If later developments in the work show that it wasn't rape, then the entry for Rape Scene should be changed to say it was Subverted and what indicates it wasn't really rape should be added.

• Word of God is Trivia, not a trope. It doesn't change what appeared in the work. The writers may not have intended for it to look like a Rape Scene, the director may not have intended it to be a Rape Scene, the actors may say it didn't play as Rape Scene when they filmed it. But none of that changes what the audience saw. Maybe the writers simply failed miserably at writing a 'rough, but consensual sex' scene. Maybe the director made a bad choice in how he directed it. Maybe how it looked changed because chunks were edited out. but none of that changes what the audience saw. Which was a Rape Scene.

What is actually in the work is what we document. Not what might have been in the work if it had been done differently. not what was in the rough draft. Not what was in the script, but never made it the screen. Not what the author "intended" or the actors "meant to convey". What the audience actually saw.

"What is actually in the work is what we document. Not what might have been in the work if it had been done differently. not what was in the rough draft. Not what was in the script, but never made it the screen. Not what the author "intended" or the actors "meant to convey". What the audience actually saw."

I saw an ambiguous scene I assume we will learn more of next episode, but Mods have spoken and I'm cool with that. Further arguing will not resolve this question, watching more of this season probably will.

There is nothing ambiguous whatsoever about a woman crying and saying 'no' and a man having sex with her anyway, which is what happened. If Cersei had said yes, then changed her mind after Jaime started, and Jaime didn't stop, there would be nothing ambiguous about that either. If Cersei had said no, and Jaime had started having sex with her anyway, and she relented after it started, there would be nothing ambiguous about that either. Any circumstance in which Cersei refuses sex and Jaime has sex with her anyway is a circumstance in which Cersei was raped.

The *only* way that scene could *not* be rape is if next episode, we find out that Jaime and Cersei planned to have a BDSM scene at the sept, and planned a safeword which Cersei did not say.

Consensual or not, Cersei doesn't seem to feel one way or the other about the sex in the next episode. If it was non-consensual I really doubt she would have been calling Jamie to her quarters and not dressing him down for raping her, or assigning someone to kill him, or saying it was HIM who poisoned Joffery.

It doesn't really fit Cersei's character to be rolled over like that.

pittsburghmuggle, there's really no point in arguing with these people about it. No matter that Alex Graves, George RR Martin, and even Lena Headey herself saying it's not a rape scene, these people here have already decided that it's a rape scene and their personal opinion about it supersedes the actual facts surrounding this scene.

You're quite right about there being no point in arguing. Wiki policy says Word of God is trivia and does not trump what is shown in the work. That's not going to change.

Locking.

edited 29th Apr '14 11:53:33 AM by Madrugada