General Autism Discussion

Autistic animals. Y/N?

Plenty of animal models exist. Sure, you need to translate between "animal behaviour" and "human behaviour" to compare in some instances. I know for example that the sounds that mouse pups produce when they are abandoned are used as a proxy for social behaviour, in addition to normal mouse social behaviour.

@ tolerance of homosexuality: I think there's a pretty simple reason for that. Part of having ASD is not getting why certain social norms exist unless there's a good explanation for it. There is no good, logical explanation for why homosexuality is wrong.

edited 24th Nov '14 7:32:51 AM by Zendervai

I am not saying this is what you are saying at all, Septimus. Let me just make a little bit of a stretch here and say something though.

I do not agree with the idea of "Aspergers have more naturally good values" in that sort of study/revelation/popscience article. To me, it just makes sense that a person in the spectrum would not mind such things so much, if at all, about other people's relationships. Not, however, because that stems from a mutual respect between human beings, but because the person simply does not understand that some segments of society would contend with same-sex relationships.

What I am saying is that someone in the spectrum will not likely understand that other aspects of society would infringe on the rights of people on same sex relationships. They just do not understand and hence see no difference and have no quarrel with it. Now. Behaviorally, this is going to look as the exact same thing as someone who agrees with them.

To the question of reacting to same sex relationships both a person who understands all social queues and a person who does not, it is going to be the exact same, but for different reasons. I am not saying they are Right for the Wrong Reasons, merely that it is not really...well. Relevant, diagnostic, or an inherent show of "superior sense of human values". Might be just a lack of understanding them.

There are psycopathic animals. Not hard to imagine autistic animals exist. Difference is that it being a disorder evident in social interactions, it is much more difficult to measure and see it and identify it.

edited 24th Nov '14 7:42:37 AM by Aszur

"Autism" has been induced in mice, in the sense that it was possible to inject their parents with something during childbearing that affects how the mouse pup will turn out. Mouse "autism" consisted of engaging in repetitive behaviors and being socially aloof in regards to other mice.

About the values thing, I agree to an extent that Aspies do not necessarily have better/more tolerant values inherently because of their brain difference, but are more likely to have such different values as a result of life experience caused by the brain difference. If you don't automatically grab onto social values/expectations/rules but have to be taught them, then you question "Why?" and it becomes easier to discard the rules you think are stupid and disagree with the ones you think are wrong. Thus, you learn that a lot of prejudice is just socially created. Even after you learn the social rules, that doesn't mean you've "learned" the prejudice; you were taught it, but you disagree with it.

Of course, that doesn't mean that Aspies can't be sexist, racist or whatever...

Exactly, and I've encountered from time to time ones who are. They may be taught the rules and agree with them, or pick up on them through contactual osmosis, which is how many social rules and roles are learned - simply hearing others express them, seeing them, and picking up on them.

I'm saying that autistics are simply less likely to get such values.

Source?

No source. Just experience. I think Septimus should link to the article about autistics being less likely to be anti-gay, at least, when possible.

edited 24th Nov '14 8:20:49 AM by BonsaiForest

However, might an Aspie just dislike certain parts of a (sub-)culture, or a certain group not playing by the same rules as everyone else in society?

Here is the study in question.

I don't know what you mean. Please explain.

I appreciate the study, but I would be skeptical of using it as a window to say Autistic people are more open to anything or less judgmental in general.

I'll try and see if I can get a copy of this study through inter-library loan, but I am concerned about their wording. Is it that Autistic men maybe are more tolerant and accepting because they are also an outskirt group or is it because they just don't give a damn.

If it's the just don't give a damn category, this isn't something to be celebrated.

God knows it is a huge problem in the younger grades with Autistic teens and kids not recognizing sexuality or sexual actions. Or even not being an ally to those when problems happen.

I had to consult on a case where an autistic kid didn't report that he saw another female being sexually harassed and grabbed by another kid because he didn't see a problem with it. He registered that the girl didn't want the attention and admitted that she said no, but when asked why didn't he help her or come forward when the teacher asked for witnesses, he said it was just touching and he thought she was having an "autistic reaction" in his words because he doesn't like to be touched either.

These are also the kids who are making very negative impressions for the autistic reputation. This kid knew what he was witnessing was inappropriate. He may not have understood the type of abuse, but everyone knows "No" and "Stop" doesn't mean that they want something to continue and if they don't they don't need to be in public school.

More specifically, for example, playing loud music and being overtly macho or not abiding by the Rule of Law and making a mess. Things like that.

edited 24th Nov '14 8:39:29 AM by Greenmantle

By the mere wordings of the study's abstract, I cannot say that it seems to be paying that much attention to the "tolerance to homosexual relationships" in ASD, but more to the results of sexual behaviors, interests and attitudes seem similar to the results of non-ASD people. The mention of the "tolerance" bit seems to just be an offshoot.

But it does not explore the "why", and I cannot say that much about the study without checking the answers and the variables checked and how. Making the questions of such type of surveys is often the hardest part of them.

Those types of behaviors I don't like in general.

You seem to deal with a lot of interesting cases, Gabrael. What exactly is your job? You seem to deal with all the worst kinds of autistics.

edited 24th Nov '14 8:43:46 AM by BonsaiForest

Different mechanisms may be at work: lower sensitivity to social norms and stereotyped gender roles in the boys with ASD, a higher tolerance for being different, a socially desirable response style, lower recognition of their own sexual preferences, or having more homosexual feelings themselves.

That is the section where they discuss the possible reasons.

They not so much discuss them as hypothesize them. I think the study is just like a recopilation, not something that goes beyond that, and it pointed that out without trying to explain that one specific bit.

Hmm. Also noticed that their reference for diagnosis is the DSM-IV, which treats autism not as a spectrum. That did not happen until V.

Again I think the vlaue of that study is pointing out that their sexual development is not hindered, rather than focusing on that one tiny little difference of which they say "it might be this...I guess...maybe..." but without going beyond that.

@ Bonsai: Which could easily lead to someone being racist, right?

Speaking only for myself, I first learned what "gay" meant when I was 12 (in the 1990s). I was told by my older brother "You know how men are attracted to women and women are attracted to men? Well, 'gay' means you're attracted to the same sex." I thought "That's weird", but didn't care otherwise. Why should I hate it? Why should I think it's a choice?

Regarding not understanding societal roles, my younger brother joined the manosphere and dumped all his lovely new beliefs on me (like the whole "men who have lots of sex are heroes, women who have lots of sex are horrible sluts" thing, or that women shouldn't vote, equal rights are bad, asexuals don't exist, transgendered people made a choice and are faking their "I'm really the opposite sex" feelings, etc.), and did repeatedly say that because I'm autistic, I don't get the "obvious". I thought over all his beliefs in my mind, and the reasons he gave me, and I still think they're fucking horrible and self-serving beliefs that can't be justified and that his reasons are shit. So much for the "we're only tolerant because we don't know any better" thing.

Not to mention that his bigotry is aimed at people who are different, and few people are more different than Aspies. But he wanted to convince me that my own natural traits are terrible for society and are bad. Kinda makes getting one to change their beliefs difficult. But even looking into and thinking over the stuff he told me, my sheer number of experiences with exceptions to all his "rules", and his shitty justifications for shit values, meant that even after I'd considered it, I came to the conclusion that his version of society is evil.

@ Greenmantle: As in, people of a certain race are more likely to act a certain way? Good point.

I used to work for the Department of Human Services in a "Human Development Center".

Basically a state run compound for those who are not criminally insane, but are incapacitated to the point of requiring institutionalization.

I had all sorts of people. I was mainly with the children, age 6 to 18. But overall, the impairments of the people who lived their ran the gambit. About 40% of them had some Autistic diagnosis, however I would argue that number should be close to 20%.

I currently work in the State's Insurance Department, but I am still on call to advise and intervene with specific clients at the facility and the local school districts. So I still see my kids and other kids as well as hospice and in between.

You should punch your brother.

That is sometimes the best clinical option to treat that sort of issue.

(Seriously. I'm not joking.)

I concur.