The General Russia Thread

Nah. You just know the Russians will blame MH-17 on it if the Ukrainians get it airborne again.

Speaking of MH17 Russian channel 1 has conclusive proof that Ukraine did it. I mean it's not like their so called evidence can be debunked by a bunch of nobodies on the internet. Rosyia Stronk

Following in the proud tradition of Andrew Schlafly and many a nerdy fandom, has created it's own wiki.

See my last two posts in the Ukraine thread, where I try to summarize the excellent work done by Bellingcat in debunking the latest claim. Shenanigans.

This is the first I've come across the photoshopped "evidence" and already I can't stop laughing. Do cross-post the Bellingcat reports to Aviation or Military, Achaemenid, we could always do with a laugh.

I'll stick it in Aviation.

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A question for Russian tropers:

I've noticed, bubbling away under the surface of a lot of modern academic commentary on Russia, references to the ideology of Eurasianism - a belief in a distinctly Russian mode of civilization and often accompanied with a strong belief in Greater Russia or Russian empire, with a helping of Orthodox religion.

How prevalent is such discourse in Russia?

edited 15th Nov '14 12:42:58 PM by Achaemenid

Dont you see that kind of stuff in the Russian state-controlled media?

Yes, but not under that name. The more...interesting...undercurrents in Russian political thought tend not to be heard so frequently. For instance, the theories of Alexander Dugin.

There are some scary people out there...

Those national bolsheviks again. I mean, come on, if you identify with either Nazism or Bolshevism, shouldn't you remember what... both of your forbears fought and died for!?

Although the idea of Russian exceptionalism is nothing new. In their case, part of their inferiority complex vis-a-vis Europe. They are always trying at turns to imitate or to reject the European identity, lusting after the benefits and ashamed of such.

Edit to add: You know you're an old lefty when you title as many of your proposal papers as possible with "What is To Be Done?"

edited 17th Nov '14 6:07:41 PM by Ogodei

@Acaemenid(sincere apologies if I spelled that wrong)

Yes, such thing is pretty prevalent in state rhetorics and in those who support them. But usually not under that name. Usually it's something vague like "We're not West and we're not East, we're special!". In what way we're special has never been properly defined, of course.

And whenever they have been defined, it's typical right wing talk. "Morality", "defense from degradation", "spirituality". Spirituality itself has been used so much, those who don't support the state no longer take the word seriously and just use it for mockery.

Dugin is the only one to adopt the word Eurasianism and define it in some ways. And it's just typical fascist garbage, a mad warmongering theocracy with a dose of extreme discrimination. His views, thankfully, don't always reflect Putin's. Dugin has been screaming day and night for a full-scale invasion to Ukraine and considers himself a persecuted minority for believing that.(Hell, who doesn't believe themselves a persecuted minority these days?)

But I haven't heard of many Russians adopting specifically that belief under that name. An "Eurasianist" is used as an insult to pro-Putin people far more often.

And yes, Dugin is an extreme Orthodox Christian. While also being an extreme Communist. Don't ask how that's possible and it's more common than you think.

@Luminosity

Thanks very much for the response. Don't worry about spelling my handle, just use "Ach" or my real name, Andrew.

I know all about the new "third position" between the Orthodox conservatism and Communism - I think it's possible because the most extreme form of conservatism is reaction - "Everything was better in the past when we were mighty and powerful, let's go back to the past today!" - and Russia, in their eyes, achieved its greatest heights of national glory in those fun-filled years between Victory Day and the death of Stalin.

That was very helpful - I've a couple of follow up questions:

Do you think Putin disagrees with Dugin because he doesn't like him or because Russia is too weak to carry out Dugin's ambitions for her?

What are the responses of ordinary Russians to Dugin's views?

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Dugin is perhaps the most frightening modern Russian figure, especially in the West. There is an academic sentiment here that he represents a "war party" within Russia - ie, a bloc within the government, Duma, and military that advocates for a full invasion of Ukraine, and military pressure on Belarus, the Baltics, Poland, and indeed the whole former Russian imperial space, with an ultimate aim of building a larger and mightier Russian empire than ever before.

He also reckons that: "The Waffen-SS and especially the scientific sector of this organization, Ahnenerbe, was an intellectual oasis within the context of the Nazi regime." Wat.

edited 18th Nov '14 8:58:03 AM by Achaemenid

Nobody want to Godwin the thread, but as time goes by it becomes harder and harder to avoid the parallels to Germany post WWI.

I heard rumors that the VDV and other such groups are more loyal to Putin than Russia for whatever that's worth.

Literally no solid evidence behind that but there you go.

@Ach

Onto the first question - I do not think Putin actually supports Dugin. I do not believe Putin is like that, or we would have all been fucked long ago. Putin's primary concern is himself and his own footing as a ruler, that's all. But Orthodox radicals and other such crazies consider Putin to be their champion. He isn't, but that delusion is useful in pacifying them.

Onto the second question - how many ordinary Americans buy into Rick Perry's shit? Or WBC? The answer would probably be the same. An ordinary Russian is usually apolitical, they just want to live their own lives in peace.

If it's about parallels to WW One, don't worry, you're not doing the Godwin.

edited 18th Nov '14 9:09:51 AM by Quag15

I was specifically drawing a comparison to the inter-war years, and the fact that the rising NAZI party also benefited from the appearance of various "philosophers of nationalism" without explicitly adopting any of them.

@Luminosity

That's my feeling too - but the trouble with making a deal with the devil is he always wants payment. Putin can whip up nationalist resentments and conservatism in order to keep his rule going, but can he then force them down again when he needs to? I fear that by offering a narrative of Russian victimhood combined with a manifest destiny he will unleash sentiments beyond his control. It isn't just the Russian centre and left that protested him in 2011, after all, it was also the nutcases like the Nazbols.

A disturbingly large amount, that's my point - he is the longest-serving governor of the USA's second most-populous state. Dugin is considerably more crazy than Perry is though.

@Ach

Some indeed are starting to speak against Putin, slowly realizing he doesn't believe what they believe. But time will tell on his ability to hold their horses. Time and economic stability, which has been Putin's prime achievement and his sole strongest claim to power. So far, it's going fine. Birth rates have at last stabilized recently, which of course will also be credited to Putin.

Should he actually be overthrown or should a big change like that happen - I do believe that the crazies will get to the top of the hill first, which would be disastrous. Then again, I don't want the embarrassments that count here as "liberals" to be in power either.

Ok, bad example. How about the KKK?

I know quite a few of those. They're in the south at least.

Thanks for the reply.

As for the KKK: Few people will associate with them because they aren't respectable, but belief in white supremacy in some way or another is remarkably enduring.

I mean, White Supremacy of a sort has been an undertow in America culture since the 1830s and the Know-Nothings (of course, that was back when the white man's position on the cultural totem pole was a matter of course, but the kind of white people the Know-Nothings stood for are the kind of white people that the various supremacist movements back today).

The KKK really lost its force after the 1960s, in part demoralized by the losses in the civil rights movement (even as race politics were slowly absorbed into the political mainstream, overt racism became very toxic, so movements like the KKK which used to have a sort of gentlemen's club air to them lost a lot of appeal), but the entire scene has become more amorphous, White Knights, The Order, Aryan Nation, Sovereign Citizens, all sorts of overlapping groups, but they still can't crack the mainstream because as much as our politics are based on racial dog whistles, when they stop being dog whistles and you start saying anything actually racist, your career is smoke quicker than quick.

Russia doesn't have that little hangup about overt racism to stand in the way.

For the organizational two-cents-worth, the VDV was pretty much designed to be more loyal to Putin than the rest of the military: Organizational Changes in the Russian Airborne Forces remarked on this as far back as 2011. It's mostly internal politics: the VDV's head, General Vladimir Shamalov, was one of Putin's friends, and used his clout to insulate his fiefdom when the Russian Armed Forces underwent its reorganization program a few years back. While there aren't real policy implications of keeping the VDV as divisions instead of brigades, the important thing is the close link between Putin and the paras, and the influence wielded by the paratrooper general—influence presumably bought with personal loyalty.

The MVD and the KGB'S Ninth Directorate used to hold the role of Praetorian Guards for the Soviet leadership in the event of the Army ever wavering in its loyalty. I wonder if the VDV is being groomed for a similar role?

edited 18th Nov '14 1:10:07 PM by Achaemenid

Internal Affairs guys get a lot of nice toys, like really nice.

I think the VDV guys get deployed to much to be proper guards. I'm fairly sure they're occupying Crimea right now.

The VDV has 35,000 people in it, and Crimea is relatively peaceful. They don't need to be occupying anything.