Shan Yu From Mulan - Badass or Boring

Believe me, friend, I've gotten into plenty of arguments of my own with people who complain about villains who they feel aren't "complex" enough (villains motivated by money seem to get a lot of this, even though money is something applicable in the real world, and easier to obtain than power over a kingdom, or what have you), so far be it from me to act like all villains need to be complex, or tortured, etc.. I just found this one dull (at least other less-than complex bad guys have more personality, and are more fun to watch for me, personally.

One thing to consider is having a simplistic motivation doesn't mean you have a simplistic personality, as long as you have facets other than your goal. Let's take Tale Spin Shere Khan, for instance. His sole motivations are power and money, and yet it's the way he behaves in pursuit of such goals, the limits between what he will do and the borders he won't cross, his efficient ruthleness, all make him multidimensional despite that (and despite having far less screentime than the arguably more amusing but more onedimensional Don Karnage).

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what my friend was getting at there. I think her point was something along the line of Mulan only finding success when she takes on a man's position (which, as Swanpride said, is substantially missing the point).

It is worth noting, though, that Mulan does not dress up as a man because she feels she can only succeed as a man, or because she wants to prove some kind of point about gender - she does it for the practical reason that she won't be accepted into the army if she's known to be a woman and thus won't be able to protect her family honour. Which makes the instance of her fellow soldiers dressing up as women in the climax no different - they don't do it, as some people seem to think, because the situation somehow requires them to act femininely, they do it for the practical reason that they won't otherwise be able to sneak past the Hun guards.

Exactly...and I think this is what makes the movie so good. Because in the end the message is to ignore gender roles and what is expected from you based on something you have no control over, but to do what you feel is right for you. Mulan feels that she has to proof something...but when she has her big triumph, she is not dressed as a man. Instead she uses her mind (climbing the palace), the fact that she is a woman (dressing up to get close to the guards) and the abilities she learned during training (when she fights Shan Yu) to succeed.

The great thing is that Shan Yu is more or less the only one who immediately accepts her as a worthy rival and runs after her instead of taking care of the big, buff soldier in his grips.

edited 19th Jun '14 1:10:36 AM by swanpride

Huh, that's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. I'd always read it as the latter: that her goal had been to help her family, and now she felt worthy enough to return to them. Due to how paramount family is to Chinese culture, I thought it was emphasising her (gender neutral) connection to family.

I thought the whole point of the original Mulan story was screw the rules, protect my family and their honor/duty needs no reward kind of thing. Odd they'd only allude to that right at the end.

edited 19th Jun '14 1:45:55 AM by absolclaw

They actually do allude to it earlier, when Mulan is alone in the mountains and questions are motivations (beautiful scene, btw). There she says that she might have not done it for the honour, but for the selfish desire to proof her worth - and Mushu comforts her by reminding her that she did it to help her father while he himself only did it for himself.

I also think that "I have been gone for far too long" makes it pretty clear where her priorities lay. One shouldn't forget that she is the only child of her family. No matter if male or female, it is her responsibility too look out for her aging parents. I honestly don't need the movie to spell this out.

Indeed, it was clear that she simply felt the duty to return to her parents. She was the only child, and I assume that she had never been away from them before either. While I guess that Karalora brought up a good point, it had nothing to do with gender.

edited 19th Jun '14 3:12:31 AM by Furienna

Re: slaughtering of the village - they're nomadic herders with little use for giant cities or farming villages. How many Han Chinese does it take to populate a grazing pasture? None.

Re: "succeed in a man's world" - yeah, uh, I thought feminism was supposed to be against defining "pick up a sword and fight the horde" and "defense of glorious motherland" as a man-only thing? I mean, that's like saying the real life story of Jackie Robinson is problematic from a social justice standpoint because he only has success in a white world.

Re: Mulan going home and turning down the post - don't we have a trope for that?

edited 19th Jun '14 8:51:04 AM by PRC4Eva

This is arguably true, but given the phrasing used and the surrounding context, it easily comes across that way. There are much better ways of expressing the same idea and I wish they had used one of those instead of the one that implies she's all done expressing herself.

Feminism is mostly about gender equality...so if a woman likes to fight in a war and has the ability to do so, nobody should deny her. But that's not exactly what Mulan wants, is it? She wants to help her father and she wants to proof her worth. By the end of the movie, she already has what she wants and more, so why should she take a silly post? And why is she only "feminist" enough if she does?

Yeah, Mulan remaining in the battlefield would only make sense if she was a Blood Knight of sorts or overall someone who enjoys (or at least accepts) the rage of war, while in the movie she's always a bit reluctant and only seems to be doing out of duty and honor to her homeland and family rather than enjoyment. Once her duty is fulfilled, she has no business staying there.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm fine with her leaving the army and going home. It would indeed have been silly of her to stay after she accomplished what she wanted and more. What I find slightly awkward is how she expresses her reason for doing so: "I think I've been away from home long enough." I think that moment could have used some stronger dialogue to make it 100% clear that she wasn't running away from fame and glory, but running toward her family.

I get you, but I think the point is clear enough...I certainly didn't need to get it spelled out considering that the whole movie is very clear about her motivations and even takes time for a whole scene which has no other purpose than giving Mulan the opportunity to examine the reasons for her decisions. When I watched the movie for the first time, I didn't expect for a second that she would take the offer. I knew her way would lead back to her family instead because that's what the movie is about.

Sidenote, today is apparently Mulan's Sweet Sixteen (that is, 16th anniversary of the movie)

I just watched the Chinese version of the I'll Make A Man Out Of You sequence which is sung by Jackie Chan while holding horse stance and am now following that with a shot of baijiu. I think proper honor has been rendered for such an occasion.

Edit: add "rewatch movie" to that list.

edited 19th Jun '14 9:55:13 PM by PRC4Eva

Badass or boring? I'd say both to me. Evil barbarian is not my favorite type of villain. I prefer Wicked Cultured trope just the way I prefer lemon ice cream to chocolate one. There is nothing objectively bad about villains like Shan Yu and I even accept that they are quite uncommon for Disney( while Wicked Cultured are extremely common). But it's still not my cup of tea. My problem with Shan Yu is his small screen time. He is probably the Disney Renessaince villain with smallest screen time( I am not sure though).

edited 21st Dec '17 2:19:49 PM by Wildelita