Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Surprised, honestly, that the US isn't giving them M113s. They've got more than enough surplus....
HGW XX/7
That would be too aggressive. The M113 GAVIN is the finest armored vehicle ever produced, and it would not suit US foreign policy to have Ukrainian GAVINS rolling over Red Square. Unleashing the almighty GAVIN is considered equivalent to nuclear warfare, such is its combat power.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Thats why they should make their own APCs and gun trucks using melted down tank steel. Enough in the scrapyard to do it...
Apparently fighting is heating up in Shyrokyne.
Shyrokyne was always going to be a hotspot with both sides controlling parts of the town. We'll see if it escalates but if it stays localised I don't think it will affect the overall cease-fire.
There are some serious credibility issues with the NATO numbers...
There are plenty of examples. Just over three weeks ago, during the cease-fire talks in Minsk, the Ukrainian military warned that the Russians — even as the diplomatic marathon was ongoing — had moved 50 tanks and dozens of rockets across the border into Luhansk. Just one day earlier, US Lieutenant General Ben Hodges had announced "direct Russian military intervention."
Senior officials in Berlin immediately asked the BND for an assessment, but the intelligence agency's satellite images showed just a few armored vehicles. Even those American intelligence officials who supply the BND with daily situation reports were much more reserved about the incident than Hodges was in his public statements. One intelligence agent says it "remains a riddle until today" how the general reached his conclusions.
edited 9th Mar '15 9:58:03 AM by Uchuujinsan
Pour y voir clair, il suffit souvent de changer la direction de son regard www.xkcd.com/386/
BBC: Putin reveals secrets of Russia's Crimea takeover plot
Crimea was formally absorbed into Russia on 18 March, to international condemnation, after unidentified gunmen took over the peninsula.
Mr Putin said on TV he had ordered work on "returning Crimea" to begin at an all-night meeting on 22 February.
The meeting was called after Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, obviously. You don't just pull operations like that out of thin air. The only thing I am wondering about is was there really anybody who thought otherwise.
It's not about the operation in itself that's the interesting thing. It's the timing.
Right after the Maidan revolution in Kyiv. What's so unusual about that?
A procrastination in of itself
Well generally if you're going to annex a section of territory that people live on you're meant to ask the people who live there, you know, what with it being their land and all.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Oh, the people are absolutely elated with their new status. And international law? Screw international law. International law did nothing when an unconstitutional coup happened in Kyiv, why should it suddenly apply to a coup in Crimea? /Putinthink
edited 9th Mar '15 2:29:37 PM by KnitTie
Well to be fair the people in Crimea were given a choice: They could join Russia now, or join Russia later.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
And 93% of them chose joining Russia now, according to an independent poll.
A fitting analogy for the whole extravaganza would be a show trial of an obviously guilty man.
edited 9th Mar '15 2:49:34 PM by KnitTie
The law in the night
That referendum was a pure case of Heads I Win, Tails You Lose for Ukraine do matter how you look at it.
Do you want to secede from Ukraine or do you want to join Russia now? No option to maintain the status quo. Save a few Pro-Kremlin right wing groups invited to oversee the vote counting, nearly everyone around the globe called the referendum bullshit.
Inter arma enim silent leges
A procrastination in of itself
X4 I can't really respond if you're goign to tag stuff as /Putinthink
As for the people of Crimea, assuming that poll is correct, that just makes Putin's actions even more of a Dick Dastardly moment. He could have had a real honest vote properly done and made the West eat humble pie as we were forced to acknowledge the right to self-determination or look like massive hypocrites. But no, he just had to cheat and decide everything well ahead of time.
edited 9th Mar '15 2:52:22 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Yet the referendum's results did truthfully represent the opinion of the majority of the Crimeans. I think there's a trope about that, let me see...
/Putinthink means I am pretty much joking. Please don't take that post seriously.
In reality, that was a result of paranoia more than anything else. Not unjustified paranoia, mind you, as Kyiv has shown to be perfectly willing to suppress separatism in Crimea just like it is trying to suppress separatism in Donbass, but still the same kind of paranoia that right now drives the EU to start considering a unified EU army.
Or maybe not paranoia. Maybe it was a deliberate show of strength and defiance specifically to go against the existing world order. Yes, I actually think that this is a much more likely explanation.
edited 9th Mar '15 2:58:41 PM by KnitTie
That's going to be big trouble for Russia and Ukraine in the next few months.
> Vladimir Putin has admitted for the first time that the plan to annex Crimea was ordered weeks before the referendum on self-determination.
He's practically gloating in front of everyone at this point, isn't he.
Radical Moderate
It's far from clear that's true. A year ago, only 23% of Crimeans wanted to join Russia, as opposed to 67% who wanted to stay in Ukraine in some form or other. Right after the events of the end of February, when pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian government sentiment might have hit its height in Crimea, 41% of Crimeans wanted to join Russia. In other words, an honestly-run referendum at that time would most likely have been similar to the Scottish referendum — lots of supporters on both sides, a close race, but with a slight advantage to the status quo.
The numbers out of the actual Crimean "election", on the other hand, were pretty clearly biased, both because no real choice was given and because most of the pro-Ukraine forces just stayed home. For example, the Crimean Tatars, who are extremely pro-Ukrainian as a group, made up 10% of the population in Crimea, but there is no indication of their preferences in the final total.
edited 9th Mar '15 8:05:10 PM by BokhuraBurnes
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
And I should add that there was no indication of Kyiv cracking down on Crimea at any point. Especially as the separatism only went into full swing after the polite green people showed up.
And the introduction of troops in Donbass was actually a response to Crimea - the signals are the same, and Kyiv did not want to risk losing another region the same way. So much for the "crackdown".
But hey, you've won, you've got the right to gloat whatever you want, we're a failed state after all. Glory to the многоходовочка!
edited 9th Mar '15 8:39:20 PM by Emuran
Khto tse, mamo-mamo?
Yes yes, because whatever is in favor of Russia must be wrong or illegitimate no matter what.
Just like how anything that isn't 100% on Russia's side at all times is obviously an eeevvviiilllll Western conspiracy orchestrated by the CIA.
"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Sorry, but the former occurs faaaar more than the latter, on balance, so your attempt to equate does not work.
I condemn both perceptions, regardless of which one happens more or less.
So, let's not lower our level of commentary to that of general commentary by users in the newspapers/news sites' sections in Britain, Russia, the US or China (to mention a few), ok?
We're better than this pointless finger-pointing.
Meh, the Saxon's an adequate battle taxi.
Painfully adequate.
edited 9th Mar '15 7:16:57 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei