The New New Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium

Well, we know at least one of them was involved in Gensokyo's creation, and I like the idea that the local normies were at least consulted before being trapped underneath a magical bubble.

Look at it this way - in four years Iraq will be celebrating a century of nationhood after being carved out of the carcass of the Ottoman Empire. Longevity does not necessarily indicate stability. I also think it's appropriate to distinguish between "Gensokyo, a particularly youkai-haunted region of Japan" and "Gensokyo, last refuge of fantasy in an increasingly-mundane world."

This is why I'm afraid of discussing money in my fanfics.

Wasn't there a scene in the comics with Kosuzu reading about the fall of the Berlin Wall and hoping nobody got hurt when it collapsed? Between extra-Border books and occasional immigrants, they probably have a general idea for what's going on out there, but can be fuzzy on the details, or have some amusing misconceptions. Like how most people view foreign countries, more or less.

Well, they knew they were Japanese in a world with other (increasingly powerful) foreign countries back when they founded Gensokyo, and I don't see why that would change. Though questions of identity can be tricky - it'd be good to know how, say, the Amish view themselves, whether they identify more strongly as Americans or if they stick to an insiders-outsiders dichotomy. Assuming we can generalize about a whole community like that.

Yeah, Gensokyo is supposed to be the land where you could encounter a tanuki or whatever on your way home from work, but if you kept bumping into one of those rascals every single night you'd get annoyed. Plus, there's lots of places in Gensokyo where youkai dominate, but only one Human Village. Having youkai swaggering the streets too often is only going to cause stress on an already stressed system. So if youkai do visit the village, disguising themselves may be a simple courtesy.

And/or it may be tied into that youkai sustenance thing where they survive on fear and antagonism - the suspicion that the mysterious stranger in the corner of the tavern might be a monster in disguise may be more potent than the certainty that Mamizou does a pub crawl every Friday night. Can't let youkai become something mundane, after all.

Not to mention Yuugi and Suika boozing it up in HM, horns out and in the open.

Maybe it comes down to expectations, which is to say youkai species. Mamizou is a tanuki, a shapeshifter, so her walking around with her tail out may be as unbecoming as someone going out half-dressed. Alice is a demon magician, a "youkai" that's basically a human wizard - there's no expectation that she would disguise herself, and since she was a human she should know how to behave herself in the village, so there's no need to put on a hat and trench coat.

It could also come down to power relations, like maybe Reisen walks openly a bunny-girl in order to assure the people of the village that the mysterious minds of Eientei aren't trying to infiltrate their hometown. And Yuuka doesn't try to disguise herself to reduce the chance that some poor fool dies Mugging the Monster.

Hmm, I know Aya has a snappy newsboy's outfit she wears in one of the comics, but was that a disguise or an alternate costume?

I like the idea that Gensokyan humans are not abnormal because they live in Gensokyo so much as they live in Gensokyo because they are abnormal. They were forced to live there for the same reason Youkai were; They were just less overt about it.

edited 11th Feb '16 1:50:29 PM by GM_3826

True. The fact that there are books and magazines in other languages would be a giveaway that there are other cultures. I don't know how much exposure the average human would have to them, but a few people would have to have seen them^note If enough villagers have seen them to verify that these books exist or if only enough have seen them to sustain rumors, I wouldn't know. IIRC these outside world items seem to only appear in dangerous areas such as the forest or isolated areas such as the Hakurei shrine.

This is looking to be correct the more I think about it.

The reason I question the Human Village's knowledge of the outside world is because I don't see the knowledge of the first generation^note that saw the erection of the barrier surviving much longer after their passing. That is to say, there would be no reason for the first generation to really discuss matters such as foreign nations and different cultures because to be inside of the barrier, to be so cut off from the rest of the world, these things might as well not even exist. If the second or third generation grew up not knowing other countries exist, then why would they know that they live in a country called Japan^note  That is to say, without something that's not Japan to compare Japan to then how would they grasp the idea of what Japan is? Imagine if there was no night, would we recognize what day is and give it its name??

Though as you said, occasional outsider (and books) would be enough to disseminate information such as that they are a part of a country and other countries exist.

Something just occurred to me. I'm under the impression that Yukari keeps some youkai outside the barrier to keep an eye on things and look for vulnerable people to abduct. I know that was the case when she sent the child-looking youkai to the outside world. It could've been a one time thing and it's been some time since I read that chapter, but it seem more like she was using these specific youkai to ramp up an already existing operation.

So if we can assume that there are some youkai that travel to and from Gensokyo on a regular(?) basis and we know that youkai masquerade as humans in the Human Village, what are the chances that the youkai are the driving factor of the Human Village's culture? The reason why they speak modern Japanese.

edited 11th Feb '16 3:36:42 PM by FalseDichotomy

I don't think Yukari's keeps youkai outside as much as they, from time to time, form a party and go outside. I have no idea how often this occurs though.

If you are talking about the Zarashi Waraski, or whatever they are called. Yukari did not send them to the outside world. They just up and left to the outside world, because people started believing in them again. That was when they had to import some goblins to try to replace those youkai in the human village. Unfortunately, the goblins weren't well received and all were sent to Remilia.

I looked the chapter up. It doesn't state outright that Yukari was using the Zashiki Warashi as spies in the Outside World. She does say that they're spies in the Human Village.

But it's pretty heavily hinted that these youkai were being used to harvest humans from the Outside World.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but considering that Yukari outright states earlier that the Zashiki Warashi are spies in the Human Village, it wouldn't be too surprising that they'd be used as spies in the Outside World.

Anyway, Yukari said the people of the outside world were given preference. Which indicates that these youkai didn't leave Gensokyo just because the Outside World started to believe in them again^note That could be a condition for a large exodus of a type of youkai, or could be needed to sustain an extended stay outside the barrier. Or maybe since these youkai aren't meant to scare people, they're most effectively used when it's known for sure that the people they'll be staying with will want them.. Someone made the conscious decision to send them out.

I get the impression that the zashiki warashi are spies without realizing that they're spies. As in, they don't do anything remotely spy-like, but Yukari thinks of them as her spies. Not that they report to Yukari or anything either. As far as Yukari's concerned, literally everyone else in Gensokyo is working for her in some capacity. Because that's just what it means to be a mastermind.

In other words, I wouldn't really take anything Yukari says at face value.

edited 12th Feb '16 2:57:24 PM by Clarste

I think it is more that Yukari considers youkai on her side and thus are spies. Whether that is true or not is another matter entirely. Remember how Yukari considers Kasen "one of us"? Whether Kasen believes that or side with youkai is a different story.

There is really nothing indicating that the Zashiki Warashi are spies or even working for Yukari. As seen in that chapter, it is fairly obvious that the reason why the Zashiki Warashi even left to the outside world was because the outside world believed in them, if only temporarily. None of that had anything to do with Yukari. And once the fad was over, the outside world stopped believing in them and they are back in the human village.

Why would Yukari need spies, anyway? She's got gaps on demand to eavesdrop or peep through. And if they were her underlings, she'd have to manage them and stuff, and argh, work.

Maybe a bit of both. Gensokyo's founders belonged to a long tradition of youkai-fighting monks and magicians and what have you, and would probably be okay with living under a bubble if it meant maintaining those identities. And once the Border was established with all those youkai under it, anyone not able to step up when the supernatural started happening wouldn't last long. Thus the insinuation that most Gensokyans can fly.

A The Village scenario, huh? Well, I'll make two comparisons - first, the Amish are a community that lives apart from modern civilization and rejects most contemporary technology. But they're not a freaky xenophobic cult or anything, they let their young people go out and experience the rest of the world at least once so they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to live the Amish lifestyle. So I think Gensokyo's humans do have to talk to their kids about what's out beyond the Border - even if it isn't necessarily feasible to send them into modern Japan - if only to explain why they're living the way they are. It'd certainly be easier than a village-wide conspiracy to pretend the world stops at the Hakurei Border. Too many outsiders, youkai or otherwise, to silence before they start talking about China's rip-off Gundam.

Second comparison is to Tokugawa Japan. The country decided to cut itself off from foreign influences and had as little to do with the outside world as possible. But they certainly had a larger conception of Japanese-ness than "not a foreigner," their cultural identity wasn't one side of a binary spectrum. And not only do Gensokyo's humans have tea ceremonies, taking their shoes off when indoors, that thing that goes "doink," etc. to teach them to be Japanese, but they're surrounded by youkai straight from a rich folklore and mythology extending back thousands of years. So I don't think there's any reason for Gensokyo's humans to give up their larger national identity just because they don't get out of their home valley.

Possible, but if disguised youkai spoke differently from the rest of the villagers, it wouldn't be much of a disguise, would it? I think the larger influence would be human immigrants from outside the Border, which I assume there's a small steady influx of if only to spice up the gene pool.

I also like the idea that some people in Gensokyo spoke a dialect of modern Japanese before modern Japanese existed, after a mysterious gap youkai showed up one day.

Yukari just loves having underlings though. That's very important. Remember she also had those two crow familiars (shikigami?) in SSiB, Zenki and Goki.

Also, she can get nearly anywhere, but she can't be everywhere at once.

Indeed. Yukari is a queen in her own mind.

Don't discount Yukari's laziness, either. She can't really do much when she's asleep (which is most of the time), so she may want to have others let her know what she's missed in her sleep, both in and out of Gensokyo.

So they could just be unwitting pawns? Or Yukari is just playing with Kasen?

I've never seen the movie, other than a few minutes here or there. But I knew about the plot twist ending and I'm ashamed I didn't think of making the comparison myself.

Makes sense. Children are naturally inquisitive and the barrier would probably draw a lot of questions.

My original line of thought wasn't that there was some conspiracy to deny the existence of the Outside World. Just that the villagers knew that it existed and left it at that, not bothering to consider anything about it. Sure, someone or something comes in and a lot of people in the village would probably be curious. But I see it as that shallow type, the kind of curiosity that's big at first but dies down really quickly.

I see what you mean. A magical barrier that's less than two-hundred years old wouldn't be enough to obliterate a culture^note And the national identity it gives rise to. spanning over a thousand years such as Japan's. Especially when that barrier doesn't keep the rest of Japan 100% out.

The youkai could pretend to be from the Outside World.

I never considered the whole gene pool issue. That would mean more outsiders were going to Gensokyo than I thought.

Not quite what I was thinking. More like Yukari's perception of reality is totally different from everyone else's.

Ah, the ol' 22nd Catch - Yukari's too lazy to stand watch herself, but having a spy network would require effort to manage. The solution of course is to tell Ran to run it and drop a one-page brief on her desk next to Yukari's morning coffee.

On the one hand, I kind of want to do a "the mundane is fantastic" thing and have villagers fascinated by the outside world and daydream about it like muggle kids - oh hey, "muggle" is recognized by Firefox! - daydream about castles and dragons. You could even have a bunch of nerdy teenagers roleplaying about their level 17 salaryman's battle to get out of a parking ticket. On the other hand, there's such a regular series of new fantastic events happening in Gensokyo that it would be hard to generalize it all as some boring backdrop of magic and monsters.

Plus, this is a pre-Industrial society. Might not have a lot of time to daydream when you need to milk the cow, churn some butter, flush the fairies out of the garden, and defeat your evil aunt when it turns out she's some shapeshifting spider-woman.

Yeah, I don't think we have any population statistics or anything, so... well, checking out Adam and Eve Plot page, it looks like the bare minimum starting population is 497, which I guess is doable for an isolated village.

But I do like the idea of some Gensokyan girl daydreaming about her perfect match, then plop, some schmuck gets spirited away by the Genetic Diversity Fairy.

Also like the idea of some youkai or magician with the power to make people unnoticeable leading urban safaris beyond the Border. Or what, the youkai can leave to go out for dinner, but not the humans?

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I'm pretty sure the human village has more than 500 people. In a town that small everybody knows everybody. But the villagers often don't know each other. We see a number of merchants who are completely unsurprised when strangers enter their stores. Kosuzu is surprised when she learns that Reimu and Mamizou know each other. Clearly she expects that a random pair of humans will probably be strangers. I estimate that the stranger constraint sets a minimum of around 2000 people. At the beginning of Wa HH 23 Reimu hears some gods speaking about the birth of a child. It turns out that a child was born in the village at that time. Reimu thinks she witnessed a miracle. But if children are born in the village on most days, then the miracle story isn't very miraculous. If there are 100 babys born per year, then we expect a human population of 7500 to 8500 depending on how many people live out their full natural lives. About 200 births per year is the most the birthday constraint will allow, which sets an upper limit of 17,000 people.

You have to also consider that ZUN may not be the best writer though. It's entirely possible that his own experience as a modern human accustomed to urban life flavors how he portrays people interacting, even in what's supposed to be a small town.

Quick note on Ichirin (who was like, 3 topics ago, lame):

It seems that, to me, her days as "Unzan's hitbox" are basically over. SoPM and the recent fighters have fleshed out her personality more thoroughly, while Unzan...is just kinda there.

Seriously, in ULiL, Unzan never "speaks" and is only mentioned once, otherwise he is just "that Stand-like thing Ichirin attacks with". So basically, a complete reversal of their status from UFO.

Also, Ichirin is best Myouren Temple person.

And now back to lurking. Sorry.

x3 So what you're saying is that it might be more accurate to call it the Human Town or even small city than Village?

So essentially Yukari just fancies herself a a Chessmaster. It's how much of one she really is that's up in the air.

That would make for a really good story.

I'm not getting what you mean by this. As for the denizens being able to leave, I was under the impression that it's virtually impossible to leave Gensokyo without either Reimu or Yukari's help and that Yukari only let the youkai leave to hunt humans (whether it's only for a night or two, or if it's a long term operation I have no clue).

EDIT: I was wondering, I know that if items are forgotten about they can end up in Gensokyo (like that radio tower in one of the fairies manga). But is that how some people end up in Gensokyo? Is it enough that others forget about them? Or would they also need to lose their sense of self? Would these people just be magicked away to Gensokyo? Would Yukari sense them and abduct them herself? Or would they just naturally be drawn to Gensokyo? As in wonder through the barrier by themselves.

edited 17th Feb '16 7:07:24 PM by FalseDichotomy

I too would also read that story, but anyway:

Well, if a seal can end up in Gensokyo because everyone forgot about them, then I don't see why a person couldn't. I've actually compared that aspect of Gensokyo to how people end up in the Abyss in Pact.

That said, I do wonder if there's a minimum range that something has to be within to get spirited to Gensokyo and not some other place, because if there isn't we have another avenue that Yukari uses to keep genetic diversity up.

As for ways through the Barrier:

• Yukari gaps you in for the lulz.
• Using the Occult Balls (Admittedly temporary)
• Punching a hole in it (Not recommended since there's a chance of killing everyone inside)
• Places like Muenzuka where the Barrier is weak enough for humans to occasionally get spirited through.
• Going through some other realm.

If it were me creating a pocket dimension that would serve as a refuge for all things magical, I'd add something to the barrier that called to my key demographic. Something youkai could sense and, consciously or not, seek out, and something that would make it easier for magicians or psychics or other extraordinary humans to stumble upon. It'd just be rude to condemn people to a mundane lifestyle just because they didn't know about your little nature reserve, you know?

Depending on the range of such an effect, that might explain why there's foreigners like the Prismrivers and Scarlets in Gensokyo. Though that would run the risk of endangering Gensokyo's distinctly Japanese motif. Maybe there's quotas on certain immigrant groups.

It's possible. Maybe it's an outdated name at this point, like how settlements with the -ton suffix are more like cities or metropolises. And it probably isn't the only place humans live in Gensokyo - beyond magicians' cottages or hermits' retreats, farmers and such would probably rather live on their homesteads than commute to and from the city each day to milk the cows, even if there's safety in numbers. I also like the thought of manors like Eientei scattered about, just run by, y'know, humans.

Or this. Though on the other hand, if people are busy with their jobs and pre-Industrial chores and all that, they might not necessarily have a lot of time to bump shoulders.

Yeah, it's not like we should expect much character development or anything from the big pink guy. Youkai generally don't get a lot of that to begin with, and Unzan got his out of the way a long time ago when he started hanging around Ichirin. Doesn't help that he's shy.

Well someone else is welcome to write it, 'cause I'm still busy with my Kotohime nonsense.

Tacitus: Well, since nobody has posted anything about Gensokyo in a couple of days, how about moving on to the hell crow? I, personally, have nothing to say on the matter, besides what's already been said.

I have nothing on Gensokyo and I learned some stuff about Gensokyo.

If that's the case I could see most of the farmland clustering around the Human Village but not part of the Village proper, but it makes me wonder if the farmland portion would be walled or fully open to the rest of Gensokyo.