TF2 MvM RP signups

... Wait, what? You made him a Medic partially so you'd have some justification to make his melee option all out better than default? And yet you insist you're not a powergamer. Riiight.

Also, not every melee unlock for Pyro and Medic are straight up better than default. Literally only the Amputator, the Solemn Vow, and the Third Degree have upsides with no downsides. Other things may be practically better, but they're not all out better.

But that's moot anyway because you should have realized already that I'm not using Valve's idea of balance. It literally outright says in my first post that items from the game may be rebalanced to better fit the RP.

So no, I am not going to let you have a straight up better weapon than default. With random crits out of the game, I'd prefer you take something else, but crit vulnerability I'd accept at like, 30%.

You are reading this.

The other RP is different. I joined that RP because I need to get a sense of the characters.

This one I'm joining because 1. I love TF 2 2. I love Mv M and 3. Because this sounds like fun.

I have a lot less in stake here. So my characters will be sloppier and more focused on their abilites and doing cool shit because that's what TF 2 is about. If the 3 sentence backstories haven't already tipped you off.

so yeah, I'm gonna powergame here.

Actually, no. Powergaming is getting every single advantage you can get. I'm deliberately crippling some areas of my character to dedicate him to a single area of expertise. I know there's a term for it.

Min-maxing? That's when you take all the stats that'll give you the best advantages and then leave the "useless" ones in the dust. If I wanted the best advantages I'd try to get an orbital strike arrangement going on.

Whatever, the point is I thought you'd already guessed this by just comparing the sign-up sheet in this RP to my sign-up sheets in B Hot A.

Firock, just take a good hard look at most of the Pyro and Medic melee unlocks. If you seriously think there's any reason to use the stock over any of those, I'll gladly tack on -10 health to the Pontufex.

If you want 20% slower swing speed or something similar to the Übersaw, I'm going to buff something in return, because 25% über is a huge deal.

edited 12th Oct '13 11:11:06 PM by gameknight102xx

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

You know this is something a lot of GMs would take one look at and say, "get out of my game", right?

For the sake of not letting any one person steal the limelight and make the game less fun for anyone else, I'm not going to sit here and let you try to powergame. This game may be a lot less serious than BHoTA, but that doesn't mean I'm going to take GMing it less seriously.

Ah, good thing I checked my other tab before I sent, as I see you've edited that accordingly.

Also you don't seem to understand the difference between practically better and all out better; it's a key distinction. Yes, I can't really think of anyone in their right mind who would use the default axe when they could instead use the Axtinguisher, but that doesn't mean the Axtinguisher is all out better; it still has downsides, just downsides that you're supposed to be working around.

Your argument is invalid, and the sad part is that I think you know that.

You mean in addition to the 20% crit vulnerability, or instead of? Because if it's instead of, and the only downside, it's going to need to be a lot more than that. The quite inferior Eyelander & reskins take off 25 health, and I would consider them balanced for the RP.

"If you, the GM, say I have to take something away, I'm going to add something else in in return."

Gee, really makes one wonder why I've been getting mad at your attitude lately in BHoTA. Also, you mean like the +20% damage it already has over the other weapons that take heads off? Like, 20% slower in return for 20% extra damage and otherwise just being an Eyelander type would be fine with me. If you want to take away the head degrading and just put in 20% slower instead of 10% faster, that's fine with me.

edited 12th Oct '13 11:44:16 PM by FirockFinion

You are reading this.

Sorry, keep forgetting we're not balancing according to TF 2. Gah! It's frustrating. Having an RP based around a game then telling the players to balance around another set of rules entirely is a good way to confuse me.

Alright, where do you want them to be? -25 Health and crit vulnerability?

Also, one thing: Axtinguisher's downsides are easy to work around, to the point if meaninglessness. If you want a comparison: making the Pontufex deal full critcal damage for 10 seconds if Paladin has first damaged them with his primary, in exchange for a -50% damage otherwise.

This means Paladin could just literally walk up, shoot a point-blank, and then instakill pretty much any robot.

Actually, no. More like "If Paladin has healed teammates in the last 10 seconds,he deals full critical damage." Rewarding the player for something they would do anyway.

Is that what you want? No, of course not. I suspect that's why you've created a new set of balancing rules in the first place.

edited 13th Oct '13 2:14:47 AM by gameknight102xx

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

I think you shouldn't try to generalize the rest of us in your arguments, and just speak for yourself. All of us thirteen players were able to make balanced characters very quickly without this much back-and-forth in the thread. Have you ever considered trying to tone things down? Cause seriously man, it gets old seeing this thing pop up on the watchlist every couple hours.

I'll change it to say confuse me.

Nman, I've posted about three times today. I'm desynced from the tropes clock by about 12 hours.

Point is, I know you don't want me to tone it down because I'm flooding the sign-ups. You want me to tone it down because you don't like me arguing with Firock.

Making a character Firock would just like outright wouldn't be a problem. I could do that in my sleep. Making one Firock would like and that I would actually feel satisfied playing is a different matter entirely.

Don't generalize me Nman. Just because you thirteen can do something doesn't mean I can. If I make a character that I don't like, I'll just end up bugging Firock more.

Plus, I can't even jump in like I could with Recon. There's nothing else for me to do.

edited 13th Oct '13 2:15:14 AM by gameknight102xx

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

Yes, I understand there may be some confusion about where the balance should lie since the RP isn't going straight off of TF2's balance, but I did try to give a decent idea in the opening post.

Since I'm not using exact health numbers, using one in a weapon buff/debuff wouldn't work too well actually. But a minus percentage would be fine; something like -20% health, (Demoman's Eyelander and reskins is approximately -14% on Demo's default health.) plus 10% extra crit vulnerability would be enough for me to consider acceptable, even if you got rid of the head degrading too. Or keep the head degrading but -20% health, no extra crit vulnerability.

Actually, no they're not meaningless. I may not be using Valve's exact balancing, (If only because it doesn't translate well into a freeform RP.) but I do for the most part respect it. And the point is counterplay, and the way those downsides fit into it.

If the Axtinguisher had literally no downsides, there wouldn't be any counterplay to really speak of. It would just be that thing that's all out better than the default axe and there's nothing you can do against it but try to diminish its upside. But with downsides, when you counterplay against the Axtinguisher well, your opponent is suddenly left with an inferior alternative to if he had the default option.

Against the Axtinguisher, you can try to engage the Pyro at water, or keep a friendly Pyro nearby for airblast. Or heck, just be a Pyro, since Pyros are only on fire while the fire is still hitting them, or use the Chargin' Targe, or the Spycicle. Anything that renders you immune to afterburn permanently or temporarily is a counter to the Axtinguisher.

It doesn't matter that these options may not come up as much; what's important is that they're there. If Valve decided, "Oh, well let's just take away the Axtinguisher's downsides because they're pointless" then suddenly all that counterplay becomes pointless. Even if you win after counterplaying the Axtinguisher's guaranteed crits away, you still came out with less of a reward for your ingenuity because all you did was reduce the Pyro to the equivalent of what he would have had anyway.

And yes, I know a smart Pyro can likewise work around said counterplays, but that's also kind of the point. It's giving both players a reason to think outside the box and adjust strategies on the fly, rather than just run and gun at each other with the best weapons they can get their hands on and whoever has the cheesier bonus wins. Actually thinking about what you're doing and knowing what your options are are both extremely rewarding in TF2, which just shows how brilliantly crafted the game is.

And that, sir, is the premise of why any item in TF2 that gives significant benefits should also give penalties. And the same applies here in this RP. Heck, some of the few things I don't agree with Valve's balance on are simply the existence of the Third Degree, the Amputator, and the Solemn Vow as items with upsides but no downsides; though, the first moreso than the second two.

... That and a few of the Spy items are kind of broken because they seem to love him too much.

That seems both overconfident and naive to just say outright.

And that sounds like generalizing against me. It also kinda sounds like you maybe don't like me as a GM, which could make me wonder why you're trying so hard to play in my RPs.

You are reading this.

/shovels popcorn down throat

Uh

Done and dome. Kind of dislike how The Pontufex is starting to show signs of Cow Mangler syndrome, but that's not a huge deal.

It's not naïve. If I wanted the easy way, I'd just go into TF 2 tightrope, find some weapons I like and have some good synergy, put them on a mannequin and paint a face on that mannequin (say...Keet)and it's job well done. Of course, there may be some things you won't like, but probably not to this degree.

I never said it'd be interesting or original. Just that's it'd work.

Firock, if I give off the vibe that I don't like you as GM, I apologize. Sure, you have some things I don't like, but if you didn't have any qualities that I found distasteful then that'd fall into other problems. Overall, I think you're more than competant and leagues more creative than most G Ms I've played with. I've played with G Ms that made our group run the Tomb Of Horrors fifty billion times with different coats of paint each time. In a Fallout roleplay. This isn't even uncommon.

If I don't like the GM of an RP, I'll stop playing. Simple as that.

edited 13th Oct '13 10:53:52 AM by gameknight102xx

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

Dude, you somehow managed to badger Firock until he finally let your character have a melee weapon that deals more damage, swings faster, boosts maximum health, and increases movement speed, which combined with his shield refills half his health on a single hit and lets him close the gap in any fight which makes him immortal in melee combat, and threw away the giant part of balancing a medic by making him able to damage enemies while healing (and if you understand the Lanchester law, you know just how insane of an upside that is), plus a crossbow with unlimited ammo in a game about managing resources because of limited supply drops, and still claim it's Cow Mangler Syndrome?

The Pyro has a set that allows him to switch weapons faster than the blink of an eye, a melee weapon that increases movement speed, heals him while doing damage (and if you understand the Lanchester law, you know just how insane of an upside that is), can overheal, and does more damage overall. Since there are random crits in TF 2 here and not here, lets also add the ability to randomly deal x3 damage. His choice of secondary which can throw away the balance of the class by giving him heavy damage at long-range, or a shotgun that can mini-crit mid-air opponents just by blasting them into the air. Not to mention his flamethrower also does enough damage at close range with an effect that can burn away a third of a light-class's hp just by brushing them.

The point is Nman, I can list things and make them sound OP too. It's not that hard. If you have something you'd like me to change, specify it. Don't just point at it and say "everything" because that results in me doing nothing.

Anyway, Cow Mangler syndrome isn't a weapon being UP. It's a weapon having a downsides that don't even make sense in an attempt to shove it into balanced. And I stated it wasn't even that big a problem.

edited 13th Oct '13 3:01:24 PM by gameknight102xx

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

@Mannequin: That doesn't necessarily sound like a character I'd like, but it does sound like a character that would be much easier to accept.

@Me as GM: I see. Well, if you think flattery is going to get you points you're mistaken, but I do thank the sentiment nevertheless.

Now if you would stop arguing with one of my other players, one who isn't giving me any problems at that, then your character is re-accepted. Keep it civil, both of you.

Though I will say again Gameknight, that this:

Is exactly what it feels like you've been trying to do both here and in BHoTA. Don't forget it's what my official warning was about, which is still on by the way. Cut. It. Out. I don't care if it's what you intended or not, it's what it feels like. And that's why I told you to stop it in that PM.

You are reading this.

Mannequin?

Uh

You are reading this.

ok.

Uh

I don't flatter Firock. Even if I did, I don't think that pointing out that you have things I don't like is part of flattery. You wondered if I didn't like you as a GM, I gave you my honest opinion.

Firock, I've done everything you said for my character up to this point. You wanted the crossbow, the shield, and the sword nerfed in various different areas, and I've complied. The little resistance I put up evaporated the instant I got into my head that I needed to balance by your rules, not TF 2's. And if you want more nerfs, I'm fine with those too.

If I'm badgering you, I'm doing a terrible job of it.

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

Only after putting up at least one argument for each thing.

Like the second and third of those. Two out of three.

Two posts of resistance for the shield. Another two for the sword; three if you count responding to Nman too. Some may call that little resistance, but the point is some of the other things we've gone on about in BHoTA have lasted way, way longer.

As I said, it's not about whether you're doing it on purpose. You clearly don't understand how badgering and pestering work if you really believe that.

edited 13th Oct '13 8:41:04 PM by FirockFinion

You are reading this.

Did you read what was actually in the posts? Or did you just count them?

Whatever. You don't want me to drag this out? Fine, the discussion's over. I'll wait for your go.

"SAID CLOUD TO THE CARTOON PONIES AND UNICORNS WITH PICTURES OF FLOWERS ON THEIR ASSES. A DURR HURR HURR." ~Game Spazzer

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