Unclear Description (titles crowner 11/9/13): In Its Hour Of Need

Yes. This trope is about the decision, not the outcome. Even whether or not the leader dies (an immediate result) is not this trope.

Maybe something like Leadership Before Reason? It strikes me that this is essentially a subtrope of Honor Before Reason where a leader refuses to abandon the people they're leading out of a sense of responsibility for them, even if the greater good would be better served by them leaving for whatever reason.

edited 12th Sep '13 6:24:28 PM by NativeJovian

Maybe, although it's more about leaders not leaving a dangerous area than leadership proper.

Ok, we have 13 Yays, 0 Nays. Think we can just wrap up this crowner now, or do we need more? We should probably get to redefining the trope/editing description/choosing new name.

Ideally, we want 15 votes on something.

We now have 15 votes.

Renaming sounds good. I like the sound of Leadership Before Reason.

What's the relationship with Going Down with the Ship? Supertrope? Sister trope? I'm not sure it informs the renaming decision, but it's a good thing to establish.

edited 5th Oct '13 10:18:47 PM by troacctid

Going Down with the Ship strikes me as a sister trope; it's related, but not quite sub- or supertrope.

Yeah. That's more about tradition, and in my experience, it's almost always expected that the captain would go down with his ship and any captain who felt otherwise was a gutless coward. Furthermore, there is nothing for him to lead anymore. His ship is sinking, so he now has no responsibilities, and he is almost honour-bound to accompany his ship.

This one is about how a country's leadership is in serious danger of being decapitated, yet the leader refuses to flee even so. Maybe out of honour, maybe because he crossed the Despair Event Horizon. He has responsibilities elsewhere, or at least a responsibility to stay alive and continue doing his job, but he ignores them, for better (if they survive) or for worse (if they don't).

We definitely need a rename, but I think we should define the trope first. As in, we come to a consensus about what exactly the trope is, someone writes up a description, and then we come up with a name.

And maybe it's just me, but I don't think Leadership Before Reason really fits. As that title is just a Snowclone of Honour Before Reason^* Not that I have a problem with snowclones, but they should be used well, the word "Leadership" is emphasized. But the thing is, a good leader would leave because he's needed elsewhere, a pigheaded leader would stay and die, leaving his people leaderless, so he's actually being a very poor leader. A Father to His Men, maybe, if they're the reason he's staying, but unless the men are the only thing he's in charge of, and not, say, a country, he's a poor leader, which makes Leadership Before Reason a bit misleading. I personally prefer "Leader's Refusal To Flee."

edited 8th Oct '13 6:39:14 AM by Xavier1161

Alright. Here's a summary of what we've come up with in this thread:

What I gather we're all in consensus on:

• Scope: The trope refers specifically to the Leader's refusal to flee. Not the consequences, or what the now leaderless country/organization/what-have-you does in their leader's absence, although the nature of the consequences can be touched up on.
• Type of danger: Could be anything (war, natural disaster, etc.)
• Leader has other responsibilities outside of those in the immediate danger zone, which makes his death a big potential problem: A must.
• The Leader refuses to flee: A must.
• Why he refuses to flee: We haven't really talked about this, but I think it could be for any reason, really. Honour Before Reason, crossing the Despair Event Horizon, maybe even Revenge Before Reason in certain situations, end result is the same: he doesn't want to go.

What we need to decide:

• How is his decision portrayed by the narrative (or public opinion, in the case of Real Life examples) — Good (ie. Noble, Brave) or Bad (ie. Foolish, irresponsible)?
  • I think that this point can be either or as far as this trope is concerned, but what do you guys think?
• Can he be convinced/forced to leave, and it still be this trope?
• Is this trope specifically about a pigheaded leader refusing to flee bringing about negative consequences, or is it just the leader refusing to flee, for better or for ill?^note This is related to, but ultimately independent of, how the decision is portrayed. For instance, we have the narrative call out the leader for staying, and he gets his boneheaded self killed, leaving his spot open for someone a lot more responsible and competent to take charge. Portrayed as the wrong decision, but otherwise has good consequences.
  • Personally, I think that leaving it open is better, as a lot of examples yield few negative consequences (like death), and one even states that the leader's refusal to flee was what kept morale high enough for his men to achieve victory, even when common sense dictated that he should get to safety. However, the resulting definition may be too broad.
• On a related note, to what extent do we go into the consequences? Just maybe a sentence or two about how it could turn out (good, bad, worse, etc.), or do we go into a bit more detail about hypothetical situations (the king is taken captive, for one. Or the king's status is unknown, and nobody can confirm whether he's actually dead, which could open up problems with succession)
• Can we allow for the leader to take some measures to address his responsibilities, such as sending out his heir, or something, and still be this trope?
  • For the record, I think this is fine.
    • Something I just thought of: can this trope include an old leader, well past his time, going out in a blaze of glory for the purpose of getting himself killed to pave the way for a successor, one who, by the time this trope occurs, everyone knows is more suited to the job? Or is that something else, as it could easily be interpreted that he's not really shirking any responsibility by this point, and maybe even taking responsibility for the state of his country's leadership by killing off someone who is no longer competent yet still stuck in his position (in situations like a strict monarchy, or something, where he can't just put up his hands and retire)?

Did I miss anything?

edited 23rd Oct '13 8:15:27 AM by Xavier1161

Tropes Are Flexible, generally speaking — I think it's wise to define it as widely as possible. Otherwise people will just Square Peg Round Trope it anyway, and we'll end up with misuse and probably have to expand the definition after another round of TRS anyway.

So yeah. I'd say that whether it's played as noble self-sacrifice or foolish indulgence of selfish desires, whether it turns out well or badly, whether the leader in question is clubbed over the head and forcibly removed, or if they send their Number Two away even while remaining themselves — all of that should still count as this trope, in my view.

Fair point about Leadership Before Reason, but Leaders Refusal To Flee sounds super awkward.

A Leader Does Not Flee/Leaders Do Not Flee, or Leader's Last Stand would be better. Maybe Going Down With His Men if we want to make that parallel. Dying With His Men, etc.

edited 8th Oct '13 2:11:17 PM by troacctid

Agreement, Leader's Refusal To Flee does sound awkward. However, I think that's a moot point at the moment. We should figure out exactly what we're defining, otherwise any sufficiently zippy titles we manage to come up with may not exactly fit. At the very least, we should come to a consensus about the four unresolved points from

How about Going Down With The City?

Either way, it's clear we have overwhelming support for a rename.

Calling for the rename.

Alt Names crowner, but so far only two names.

Crowner's hooked and the title's adjusted to reflect.

A votes snapshot here:

• "Leader's Refusal To Flee" is at 7-1 yea/nay.
• "A Leader Does Not Flee" is at 2-1 yea/nay.

All else is in the red.

Another votes bump.

Another votes bump. Only three options in green:

• A Leader Does Not Flee: 10-3 yea/nay.
• Leaders Refusal To Flee: 10-4 yea/nay.
• Leading From The Danger Zone: 5-4 yea/nay.