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Total posts:  1
Yes. This trope is about the decision, not the outcome. Even whether or not the leader dies (an immediate result) is not this trope.
Io vs JupiterMaybe something like Leadership Before Reason? It strikes me that this is essentially a subtrope of Honor Before Reason where a leader refuses to abandon the people they're leading out of a sense of responsibility for them, even if the greater good would be better served by them leaving for whatever reason.
edited 12th Sep '13 6:24:28 PM by NativeJovian
Christmas wormsMaybe, although it's more about leaders not leaving a dangerous area than leadership proper.
Ok, we have 13 Yays, 0 Nays. Think we can just wrap up this crowner now, or do we need more? We should probably get to redefining the trope/editing description/choosing new name.
Christmas wormsIdeally, we want 15 votes on something.
We now have 15 votes.
Leadership Before Reason. What's the relationship with Going Down with the Ship? Supertrope? Sister trope? I'm not sure it informs the renaming decision, but it's a good thing to establish.
edited 5th Oct '13 10:18:47 PM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Io vs JupiterGoing Down with the Ship strikes me as a sister trope; it's related, but not quite sub- or supertrope.
Yeah. That's more about tradition, and in my experience, it's almost always expected that the captain would go down with his ship and any captain who felt otherwise was a gutless coward. Furthermore, there is nothing for him to lead anymore. His ship is sinking, so he now has no responsibilities, and he is almost honour-bound to accompany his ship. This one is about how a country's leadership is in serious danger of being decapitated, yet the leader refuses to flee even so. Maybe out of honour, maybe because he crossed the Despair Event Horizon. He has responsibilities elsewhere, or at least a responsibility to stay alive and continue doing his job, but he ignores them, for better (if they survive) or for worse (if they don't). We definitely need a rename, but I think we should define the trope first. As in, we come to a consensus about what exactly the trope is, someone writes up a description, and then we come up with a name.
And maybe it's just me, but I don't think Leadership Before Reason really fits. As that title is just a Snowclone of Honour Before Reason* , the word "Leadership" is emphasized. But the thing is, a good leader would leave because he's needed elsewhere, a pigheaded leader would stay and die, leaving his people leaderless, so he's actually being a very poor leader. A Father to His Men, maybe, if they're the reason he's staying, but unless the men are the only thing he's in charge of, and not, say, a country, he's a poor leader, which makes Leadership Before Reason a bit misleading. I personally prefer "Leader's Refusal To Flee."
edited 8th Oct '13 6:39:14 AM by Xavier1161
Alright. Here's a summary of what we've come up with in this thread: What I gather we're all in consensus on:
edited 23rd Oct '13 8:15:27 AM by Xavier1161
Io vs JupiterTropes Are Flexible, generally speaking — I think it's wise to define it as widely as possible. Otherwise people will just Square Peg Round Trope it anyway, and we'll end up with misuse and probably have to expand the definition after another round of TRS anyway. So yeah. I'd say that whether it's played as noble self-sacrifice or foolish indulgence of selfish desires, whether it turns out well or badly, whether the leader in question is clubbed over the head and forcibly removed, or if they send their Number Two away even while remaining themselves — all of that should still count as this trope, in my view.
Leadership Before Reason, but Leaders Refusal To Flee sounds super awkward. A Leader Does Not Flee/Leaders Do Not Flee, or Leader's Last Stand would be better. Maybe Going Down With His Men if we want to make that parallel. Dying With His Men, etc.
edited 8th Oct '13 2:11:17 PM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Agreement, Leader's Refusal To Flee does sound awkward. However, I think that's a moot point at the moment. We should figure out exactly what we're defining, otherwise any sufficiently zippy titles we manage to come up with may not exactly fit. At the very least, we should come to a consensus about the four unresolved points from
How about Going Down With The City?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Christmas wormsAlt Names crowner, but so far only two names.
With Mod Hat OnCrowner's hooked and the title's adjusted to reflect.
Christmas wormsA votes snapshot here:
Christmas wormsAnother votes bump.
Christmas wormsAnother votes bump. Only three options in green:
The system doesn't know you right now, so no post button for you.
You need to Get Known to get one of those.
Total posts: 46
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