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Unclear Description (titles crowner 11/9/13): In Its Hour Of Need get usage counts

Well, and Ambiguous Name, but I thought the description was the bigger problem.

It's meandering. It talks about a leader in a situation where he is fighting for his life and he needs to go do something else that is more necessary and he won't budge, and it offers different ways this situation may play out (The leader is convinced to go, or he's forced to leave, or he dies, or he dies and sends his heir out in his place) as if they were all parts of the trope, then it turns right around and says that the leader's death is necessary for this trope, and that captivity removes the effect (exactly what effect this refers to, I'm not sure).

I'm assuming whoever wrote this description was trying to say something along the lines of, "This situation is about when a King is fighting with his men and refuses to leave them due to Honour Before Reason, even though he is needed elsewhere. And then he dies." However, the description is so meandering it's hard to tell.

If that's the case, then it seems to me that the name is meaningless. How does "In its hour of need" have anything to do with that description. "In its hour of need" sounds like its referring to a ruler coming back in his country's hour of need, but this description only talks about the king refusing to leave his men (and even then, the description sounds more like an example than anything) and doesn't say anything about anybody's "need."

 2 Rethkir, Mon, 9th Sep '13 10:45:29 AM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I'm having trouble figuring out the trope's definition. The description is doing everything except describing the trope. It could use a complete rewrite.
 3 Septimus Heap, Mon, 9th Sep '13 10:51:07 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
The trope is about authority people staying in a disaster-stricken area even if their endangerment creates more problems.

If that's all there is to it, the trope description still needs some serious reworking to fit that definition. As it is, it's more an example than anything. It doesn't even mention natural disasters, just a battle with the King fighting when he really shouldn't be. And the title is still extremely misleading. As it is, the title and the description (and even the supposed definition) of the trope are completely incompatible with each other.

And then there's the part of the description that says, "Note that you really have to get killed to pull this off. Captivity removes most of the effect." Is dying really a part of this trope? Or is it just the person staying when they're being stupid to do so? This part's confusing because the rest of the article leaves this point open.

edited 9th Sep '13 11:45:19 AM by Xavier1161

 5 Madrugada, Mon, 9th Sep '13 11:48:05 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I think Septimus kind of got the definition. Kind of.

The way I read it it, assuming the page quote a good choice, which may not be true) is "The leader is in danger, and the larger goal would be best served by him removing himself from danger. He decides to stay anyway."
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
And the part about having to die? Should that be there or should it get axed?

And either way, we either have to change the name, or someone needs to come up with a way that the trope reflects the name. Otherwise, it's just misleading.

 8 Rethkir, Mon, 9th Sep '13 12:13:57 PM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I like that one, but maybe something that has a little bit more to do with a ruler or something.

 10 Madrugada, Mon, 9th Sep '13 1:06:13 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I would say that the needing to die is not vital. Also, it should be about any leader, not just a ruler.

The other option is to change it so that it's clearly about the situation that arises because a leader made this choice, and died because of it. Then the death is necessary, but the description needs to be turned on its head: "This trope occurs when a leader falls into Honor Before Reason and chooses to stay on a position of grave danger to himself and dies because of his decision, leaving his followers to figure out how to carry on without him."

Make the trope about the situation and the choice, not the outcome. And I agree that the name is horribly misleading.

edited 9th Sep '13 1:11:02 PM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
If that's the case, and it's just a leader, then I think that Rethkir's suggestion for a name works. Any arguments or better suggestions?

 12 Madrugada, Mon, 9th Sep '13 1:12:45 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Rethkir's suggestion is better than what we have now, but it's still not good. It's doesn't indicate that it's the leader who is staying, or that the trope is about a choice, or that there's another option that would be better in the big picture...
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
Alright then, we can decide on a name later. First, we should decide which definition we're going to go with:

1) The leader is in danger, and the larger goal would be best served by him removing himself from danger. He decides to stay anyway. (Focusing on the decision to stay, ignoring on the outcome)

2) A leader falls into Honor Before Reason and chooses to stay in a position of grave danger to himself and dies because of his decision, leaving his followers to figure out how to carry on without him. A) Focusing on the decision to stay, emphasizing the outcome, or B) Focusing on the decesion to stay, noting the outcome but not highlighting it.

edited 9th Sep '13 1:27:36 PM by Xavier1161

 14 Native Jovian, Mon, 9th Sep '13 3:22:07 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I think it's the first one: the opening sentence of the description is, after all, "sometimes even the Reasonable Authority Figure puts Honor Before Reason".
 15 Rethkir, Mon, 9th Sep '13 5:01:26 PM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
 16 Madrugada, Mon, 9th Sep '13 5:30:32 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
That sounds like he stays when everyone else has left. I think a good name for this one is going to be hard to find...
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 17 Rethkir, Mon, 9th Sep '13 5:48:43 PM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Here's one that's descriptive, yet zippy enough: Leader's Refusal To Flee

edited 9th Sep '13 5:51:23 PM by Rethkir

 18 Madrugada, Mon, 9th Sep '13 5:56:38 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I rather like that one...

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 19 Septimus Heap, Tue, 10th Sep '13 12:59:45 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
I agree with @17. I do not think that dying is in any way required, except that a) the stay of the authority person makes the problem worse and b) it happens for no good reason.

 20 Rethkir, Tue, 10th Sep '13 4:01:04 PM Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
 21 Willbyr, Tue, 10th Sep '13 4:08:36 PM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Single prop crowner's hooked.
 22 Septimus Heap, Wed, 11th Sep '13 12:12:24 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
We'll also need a description rewrite here.

Ok, given how there are 8 yays and 0 nays, I'm thinking that everybody is in support of renaming the trope. Now, what's a good name? @17 had a good idea, although Leader's Refusal to Flee sounds a bit clunky. Any better ideas?

A Nation Without A Leader.

Does it have to be after the disaster, or is this trope in effect when the Nation has lost their leader just before a disaster, and they haven't a leader yet. I'm thinking of Dragon Age: Origins, the Dwarven community.
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 25 Madrugada, Thu, 12th Sep '13 12:07:31 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
That's a whole different trope. It could be the result of this trope, or it could be because of any number of other reasons. This one is about the decision of the leader to remain in danger.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!

Alternative Titles: In Its Hour Of Need
9th Nov '13 7:34:31 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
Total posts: 45
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