Examples in WhenSheSmiles not conforming to archetype?

Following a conversation on my YMMV entry in Bakemonogatari, it seems that many examples in When She Smiles don't follow the archetype. E.g., Inner Moka from Rosario + Vampire could hardly be described as plain or unremarkable. The same applies to both Yin and Hei of Darker than Black. There are other examples. I think what the tropers had in mind was the contrast between what the character is normally like and the warmth shown when the character does genuinely smile. My question is: should the trope description be changed to reflect the examples used? I think it would avoid confusion.

No, we don't generally follow bad examples by changing the definition, especially when most of the examples are good according to the current definition. The trope is "A plain or unremarkable-looking person (almost always a girl) is beautiful when she smiles". If the character is beautiful or attractive even when she isn't smiling, it's a bad example and should be removed. A character who is already attractive still being attractive when they're smiling is pure People Sit On Chairs: it adds nothing to the story. It just a thing that happens.

edited 2nd Sep '13 7:46:39 AM by Madrugada

In which case many of the examples, including those I mentioned, should be removed. Bound to cause controversy. I'll leave it to more experienced tropers, and for others to weigh in here.

Nope, you don't need to worry about taking them out. Just leave an edit reason along the lines of "Not an example. The trope is that a plain or unattractive person becomes attractive or beautiful when they smile. These characters are not plain or unattractive to start with."

Interesting that you should start this. I have a YKTTW called Glimpse Of Happiness about the misuse of When She Smiles. I would appreciate help with it in it's discussion. I haven't read every example of When She Smiles, but it seems like quite a few of them are Audience Reaction when the page specifically says it's supposed to be In-Universe and the rest of the page description fits with that.

Edit: If you want to talk about the pages that have examples that don't fit there's Projects: Long Term/Perpetual: Trope Misuse Cleanup In General you can participate in.

edited 3rd Sep '13 12:39:07 AM by lexicon

Not only that, but to quote the trope page:

Generally, if a Rei Ayanami Expy is in the cast, there will be a moment like this somewhere in the Anime.

If you look up Rei Ayanami Expy and take a look at the trope pictures, hardly any of the girls could be described as plain or unremarkable. In addition, some of them are very definitely regarded as beautiful In-Universe.

ETA: In any event, I removed the entry from Bakemonogatari.

edited 3rd Sep '13 2:33:35 PM by JamesBannon

The trope is when a plain or ordinary female becomes enormously more appealing in-universe when she smiles or is happy in general. It is not about fans wanking over female characters. It must be called out in the story to count. It's also more often a written trope than a visual trope, I think.

edited 3rd Sep '13 2:33:48 PM by Fighteer

The issue isn't whether it's mere fan wank — in most of the examples I've seen, the contrast is noted In-Universe — but whether or not plain or unremarkable applies.

Right, but that also has to be a matter of in-universe observation. Hollywood Homely aside, of course — very few anime characters that aren't intentionally drawn in a grotesque manner can be said to be plain.

The character has to be plain or unremarkable. In most works, something like that is noted, somehow — she is explicitly described in the narration as plain or unremarkable, or another character says something about her being plain, not-particularly-beautiful, 'ordinary-looking' or the like.

And it doesn't have to be a female, it's just more unusual that it's applied to a male.

I noticed another form of misuse: where a character is singled out for having a smile that affects other characters in a positive way but the character is also known to be attractive even when not smiling. One of the most notable examples of this is Kaylee from Firefly, who is variously regarded by other characters as cute, adorable and pretty. The show's creator himself said that when she smiles, she makes everything shiny. I've removed her from the page, but I have noticed she's not the only example of this happening.

Part of the problem is that When She Smiles is identified with a stock phrase, which gets used regardless of whether the trope itself applies.

edited 3rd Sep '13 3:35:18 PM by Fighteer

If there are other examples like Kaylee they should get their own YKTTW and we should definitely consider making a TRS for a title change for When She Smiles once a slot opens up.

@lexicon: Sorry, but could you translate?

I'm inclined to think this really gets at the root of the misuse.

Click on YKTTW and it will take you to the place called You Know That Thing Where where we pitch trope ideas. TRS is Trope Repair Shop. The limit is 100 so you have to sometimes wait for a slot to open up to start one.

Thanks.

When She Smiles is now in TRS so feel free to participate. Also, the misuse clean up thread I mentioned in 5 can use more involvement.

Locking it up.