Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
A procrastination in of itself
Here's two links I found when googling "Hamas human shields"[1][2], one sites the New York Times covering the fact that Hamas deliberately use human shields and the other talks about how Hamas has a bunker underneath a hospital.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:18:01 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Gunpla is amazing!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If you want Palestine out of your hair why does Israel continue building illegal settlements and taking more land? And no nation truly goes "Well we lost lets just give up" When they're being occupied. You'll always have resistance. They are cornered and feel defeat = death.
Well one of the articles is old, and like I said, I didn't say Hamas is innocent in this too.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:22:19 AM by Thorn14
A procrastination in of itself
Because some parts of the Israeli government want the Palestinians out of their hair, other parts want to create a Greater Israeli incorporating all Palestinian land by committing a slow genocide.
Edit to your edit: Five years isn't that old, so don't disregard it like that. And you did specifically say that there was no evidence Hamas was using human shields, as I've provided such evidence to you I'd like to ask how it's Israel's fault that Hamas is using human shields?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:23:33 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Gunpla is amazing!
And I think I know which one is in power right now.
Rehab-Center for the disabled bombed to shit.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:23:28 AM by Thorn14
United Earth
You know, when Emperor Charles, Fifth of Germany and First of Spain, founded his "Tercios", they steamrolled Europe and all its new protestant principalities, winning every battle, and yet, and yet, the populations never surrendered, never gave up, and every victory was pyrric... until Spain spent its gold out and its empire fell apart, piece by peace.
Losing and winning are relative, subjective concepts, outside of perfectly normalized games. At the game of life, the winner is whoever achieves what they want. As long as they have not lost hope, as long as their hate is fuelled, the Palestinians will not surrender.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
the territories within the west bank that we're mostly building in, are known as the major settlement blocks. which would NOT be part of any future Palestinian state and would instead be annexed by Israel, if and when such a state is formed (in exchange for other territories).
it doesn't matter if we build there, because its going to be our territory anyway.
and yet Germany surrendered completely, as did Japan, and both those countries are now some of the richest and most successful in the world.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:27:56 AM by bladeofdarkness
Gunpla is amazing!
"it doesn't matter if we build there, because its going to be our territory anyway. "
And you wonder why Palestine keeps fighting back.
Thorn you said:
meaning that if Hamas would stop trying to fight us we would have no reason to give them anything at all.
The same could be said on us. If we would just say that the Palestinians are too weak therefore we can't use force against them, we would be the ones who would have no leverage in future negotiation.
The threat of war, is what make peace possible
Gunpla is amazing!
"meaning that if Hamas would stop trying to fight us we would have no reason to give them anything at all. "
Do I need to get out that list of all those illegal settlements being built and people being evicted from their homes during times of "peace"?
"The threat of war, is what make peace possible "
Some peace you got, huh?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:29:08 AM by Thorn14
will "fighting back" somehow warp reality ?
those territories are home to hundreds of thousands of Jews, who are not going to go anywhere.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:29:13 AM by bladeofdarkness
Gunpla is amazing!
But the fact they used to home Palestinians doesn't matter?
If Palestine somehow got a huge military and kicked out all the Israelis out of those homes, what do you think the reaction would be?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:30:15 AM by Thorn14
nope. not at all.
not at this point.
Gunpla is amazing!
Well I can see I can't debate with someone who believes in "Might makes right" and "The strong should conquer the weak" and can't seem to put things into perspective.
So whatever.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:31:21 AM by Thorn14
i didn't say any of those things.
i said what is, is. now the question if how you deal with it.
Well when we did evacuated all the settlement from Gaza that didn't seem to inspire peace. That's because we gave it to them for free.
Gunpla is amazing!
Palestinians are dealing with it by fighting back however they can and feel content to fight to the bitter end out of sheer (somewhat justified) hatred.
... and its getting them nowhere.
The Settlements were built on land we own, either as a state or privately, and only in Areas C; The Areas that the Oslo Accords determine to be under our administration(with ownership to be decided later), unlike Areas A and B which are kept Jew-free, as Jordan made them.
They could have had a state in most of Judea&Samaria and Gaza(note that some of the offending white parts were removed since then); You could say that you think the offer wasn't good enough and that a different one would be, but they never actually made a peace offer of their own. They only make demands.
edited 12th Jul '14 11:03:54 AM by ManInGray
United Earth
You are forgetting "pride", "stubbornness", "tenacity", "perseveration", "hope". You really they run purely on The Power of Hate and the need for Revenge?
edited 12th Jul '14 10:38:24 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Basically what I said. You have to be able (and willing) to make war to get peace.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:52:53 AM by nnokwoodeye1
United Earth
No, no, you can have peace if you Sheathe Your Sword, it's just that depending on the values of whom you face, it can be anything from the peace of the free to the peace of the slave to the restful peace of R.I.P. Basically, you're in your enemy's hands, at their mercy, under their whim.
The problem with people being willing and able to go to war is that they often end up doing so. Every battle that ever happened, happened because both sides thought they would win. Every time, one of them was wrong. Not a great success rate if you ask me.
edited 12th Jul '14 11:00:12 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
no offence, but you fundamentally misunderstand how Israelis think. because that isn't it at all.
our response to civilian deaths on our side, is to demand heavy retaliation against the offending party, not rage against the government.
so far, the current conflict has been going on for five days, and most people seem to be expressing annoyance with the goverment for showing a (under the circumstances) restrained response. and this is despite not suffering a single loss of life on our side so far.
we honestly don't view Hamas as the kind of threat that would restrain us from doing anything we think is right, and much more concern is placed on international criticism rather then the threat of Hamas retaliation.
edited 12th Jul '14 11:14:14 AM by bladeofdarkness
And, you expect Palestinians to have a radically different feeling to being attacked by Israel?
their "bargaining power" is that we don't want to rule over them.
and, recent few years aside, we've genuinely been willing to negotiate for a while now.
as for the "unconditional surrender"... they already lost. it doesn't matter if they want to admit it, they already lost. fighting at this point actively damages their chances.
@The Handle
getting them out of our hair means getting them to rule themselves in the territories they largely control, with as little contact with us as possible.
edited 12th Jul '14 10:19:15 AM by bladeofdarkness