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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11176: Jul 13th 2016 at 3:24:38 AM

when, on some level, they know their deeds for what they are?
Unless you're going Abracadabra here, you're assuming that everybody thinks that building settlements and treating Palestinians like crap is bad/wrong. I've met a few people (and heard of more) that don't think so.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11177: Jul 13th 2016 at 3:40:05 AM

Even when: allowing for times when it isn't the case. I'm fully aware that there's no shortage of Israeli openly describing Palestinians as subhuman.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Cag Since: Sep, 2010
#11178: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:44:27 AM

Argh, I've just tried to make a post about Hamakor's(an Israeli investigative journalism program) episode on Shovrim Shitka/Breaking the Silence, but my internet connection crapped out and I lost all of it.

Basically, they went against the demonization of the organization, but they also found that its verification standards aren't as good as it usually claims.

edited 13th Jul '16 8:45:04 AM by Cag

desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11179: Jul 13th 2016 at 9:07:27 AM

Hm, I'm bored. I'll go watch it.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11180: Jul 15th 2016 at 11:32:40 AM

I went and indeed watched that investigationnote . I think the general idea is this: BtS outright lie sometimes, they skew things to fit their agenda sometimes, but they also tell true things sometimes. They're not, as was said some years ago, actively looking for classified information (which would've made them criminals), but on the other hand they're not all about "ending the occupation" (since they've dealt with two Gaza wars after Israel disengaged from Gaza) nor is the majority of their activity in Israel (it's about half here and half aimed at people from abroad).
At day's end, I think that they don't have Israel's best interests in mind. Maybe they care about the Palestinians, maybe they have something against Israel, it's hard to say; but they certainly play into the hands of all of those Israel-haters and antisemites out there.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11181: Aug 2nd 2016 at 8:14:40 AM

Dominique de Villepin, former French Prime Minister and Minister for Foreign Affairs: "To Raise the Voice in View of the Massacre in Gaza":

Today, to raise one’s voice, in view of the massacre perpetrated in Gaza is, and I write this with conscience, France’s duty. France, whose commitment to the existence and the security of Israel is unwavering, but who, at the same time, cannot neglect the rights and duties of Israel in its quality as a nation state. I appeal to all those who are tempted to recoil in the face of the perennial return to war: now is time to speak and to act. It is time to measure the dead end in which France finds itself, aligned and so certain of the merits of force as recourse. It is time to pull off the veil of lies, of omissions and of half-truths, to support the hope for change.

Whether because of guilt, ill-conceived interest or submission in face of the toughest, France’s own voice has perished; the voice which impelled General de Gaulle to speak out in the wake of the Six Day War; the voice which drove Jacques Chirac to cry out the morrow of the second intifada. Today, how are we to understand France’s call for “restraint” when children are knowingly being killed? How are we to understand when France abstains as an international investigation is weighed on the crimes of war committed by both sides? How are we to understand when, from the mouth of its president, France’s initial reaction is one which unreservedly supports the security policy of Israel? France is in a blind alley with its adapting spirit and the support of the use of force.

I believe that truth alone can justify action. We will not build peace on lies. This is why we are duty-bound to truth in the face of a conflict in which each word is loaded and the most contemptible accusations are exploited.

Let us have the courage to declare a first truth: International law does not give a right to security which engages, in return, a right to occupy and even less so, a right to massacre. There is a right to peace, and that right is the same for all peoples. The security which Israel seeks today, is done so against peace and against the Palestinian people. Instead of a search for peace, there is but a spiral of force which heads toward perpetual war with varying intensity. Israel condemns itself to repeated confrontations in Gaza or in the West Bank because it condemns the Palestinians to backwardness and suffering. Terrifying strategy because, little by little, it condemns Israel to becoming a segregationist, militaristic and authoritarian State. It is the spiral of South Africa under apartheid — before Frederik De Klerk and Nelson Mandela — wrought by violent repression, fear and the debasing Bantustans. It is the spiral of French Algeria between the putsch of the generals and of the bombings of the Secret Armed Organisation (OAS) as opposed to the side of peace embodied by de Gaulle.

There is a second truth to declare forcefully: There can be no collective responsibility of a people for the acts of certain groups or individuals. How can we forget the depth of the imbalance of the situation; one which does not oppose two states, but, rather, a people, landless and hopeless, against a state which is driven by fear? One can not take pretext of the fact that the civilians are exploited by Hamas in order to obliterate the fact that they are the ones that are killed, even less so it has been denied to acknowledge that those very civilians voted for Hamas in 2007, or at least for one of its political branches. Other than the United States, could there be one single country in the world to act thus? Though the situations are, of course, vastly different, did France go to war in Algeria in 1995-1996 after the attacks financed by the Armed Islamic Group (GIA)? Did London bomb Ireland in the 1970s?

One cannot fail to note a third, tongue-burning truth which I want to state: Yes, there is terror in Palestine and in the West Bank. An organized, methodical terror, systematically applied by the Israeli armed forces as has been testified by numerous Israeli officers and soldiers disgusted by the role which they had been given. I cannot accept hearing that what is happening in Palestine is not that serious and that it would be worse elsewhere. I cannot accept that an entire people has been condemned to fear and bombing, to the stench of “dirty water” and the misery of the blockade. I cannot accept the denial that something transcends our differences - our common humanity.

Today, we have no peace plan or an interlocutor capable of proposing one. We have to start from scratch. The problem of peace, as was the case in Algeria between 1958 and 1962, is not “how?” but “who?”

There is no interlocutor in Palestine because the fighters for peace have been systematically marginalized by the strategy of the Israeli government. Yesterday’s logic of force legitimized Hamas against the Fatah. Today’s legitimizes the most radical forces of Hamas, or even, the Islamic Jihad. To do without a partner for peace is accepting a logic leading towards submission or elimination.

There are no more partners for peace in Israel, because the peace militants have been marginalized and reduced to silence. The people of Israel are a people of memory, pride and courage. But today a crazy logic has overtaken their state, a logic which leads to the loss of the possibility of a two-state solution, the only conceivable one. A resigned segment of the Israeli population is today’s primary threat. Amos Oz, Zeev Sternhell or Elie Barnavi are increasingly alone, crying in the desert, their voices drowned by the roar of the helicopters.

Nor are their partners on the international scene because of the many buried peace plans and the resulting weariness and resignation. We question the usefulness of the Quartet. We despair at the Europe checkbook diplomacy which limits itself to paying for the reconstruction of Palestinian buildings which were bombed yesterday and which will be bombed again tomorrow, while the United States spends two billion dollars [≈ 2008 presidential contributions] annually to finance the bombs that destroy those very buildings.

Given the absence of a peace plan, only imposed measures capable of changing the general trend are susceptible to reawaken the partners out of their torpor. This is absolutely the responsibility of France.

Tool number one: Sanctions, to wake up the Israeli society. It needs to face its historical responsibilities before it is too late, particularly at this time, when a large scale military ground operation is being considered in Gaza. This is done by a vote of the UN Security Council with a resolution condemning Israel’s actions, its non-compliance with prior resolutions, its non-compliance with human rights and the laws of war. Concretely, applying targeted and calibrated economic sanctions, particularly to activities directly linked to the operations in Gaza or to those activities in the colonies. I don’t believe in sanctions against authoritarian states, which they reenforce, but I believe that they can be effective in a democratic society which needs to be confronted with reality.

Tool number two: International justice. The urgency today is to prevent war crimes. To achieve this, it is high time the right to be affiliated to the International Court of Justice, the best guarantor of international law today, be given to the Palestinians. By doing this, the Palestinian Territories come under international protection.

Tool number three available to the international community: an interposition force. In the absence of a possible negotiated solution, one must be imposed by a UN mandate in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem with an administration and an international peacekeeping force. We know that this administration would be in great danger from all across the extremist spectrum, but peace demands sacrifices. Its goals would be to restructure the economy and society in these territories with a substantial aid plan, as well as to protect civilians. Also, to resume the inter-Palestinian dialogue and guarantee free elections on the whole of its territories. With strength gained in these areas, it would promote peace negotiations with Israel and draft the outlines for these.

We do not have the right to resign in the face of perpetual war because it will continue to contaminate the whole region; its poison will not cease to shatter hopes for world order. One single injustice tolerated is sufficient to challenge the idea of justice itself.

This post was first published in French, in Le Figaro newspaper on Friday, August 1.

I like what he's saying, but isn't he jumping the gun a bit? There's been reports on escalating tensions but...

Hamas’s leader, Ismail Haniyeh, declared the unrest an intifada and urged further clashes. In a sermon for Friday prayers at a mosque in Gaza City, he said: “We are calling for the strengthening and increasing of the intifada. It is the only path that will lead to liberation. Gaza will fulfil its role in the Jerusalem intifada and it is more than ready for confrontation.”

Oh, fuck you, Haniyeh.

Friday’s clash was the deadliest in Gaza since the summer 2014 war with Israel. Both the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, have called for calm, and Palestinian police continue to coordinate with Israeli security forces to try to restore order,

Good!

but there are few signs of the tension and violence dying down.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#11182: Aug 2nd 2016 at 11:30:20 AM

Please, what did you expect? This Palestine and Israel; tensions being slow to dying down (often glacially so) is par for the course.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11183: Aug 2nd 2016 at 3:51:20 PM

From a purely selfish standpoint, I really would not like to sit through another fucking lawn-mowing operation. The sheer hate, man, the rancour, the frustration. I'm going through that, and I don't even live there. How the Palestinians haven't become hateful monsters who live for revenge, I just don't know. Overall, I can only guess that they are much better people than I.

edited 2nd Aug '16 3:51:52 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11184: Aug 2nd 2016 at 3:54:54 PM

How the Palestinians haven't become hateful monsters who live for revenge, I just don't know.
Most Some of them have, and their mob mentality definitely has been like that since the 1920s and before.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The dark Mage of the playground
#11185: Aug 3rd 2016 at 5:00:02 AM

Tbh when i saw this thread brought back up again i thought you would have a field day with the recent incident in which an israeli borderguardpolice guy confiscated a bicycle from an 8 year old and faces trial now. Theres a video somwhere appearently.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11186: Aug 3rd 2016 at 12:14:03 PM

That's just standard all-quiet-on-the-western-front daily petty misery. The only thing notable about it is that the jerk is facing charges.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11187: Aug 3rd 2016 at 12:35:23 PM

I do hope it's the start of a trend (the charges, not the throwing bikes behind things — that's ick), but with the BP's composition, I doubt it.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
majoraoftime Immanentizing the eschaton from UTC -3:00 Since: Jun, 2009
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11189: Aug 3rd 2016 at 8:03:47 PM

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
yoneld Thus speaks yoneld: from Haifa, Israel Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Thus speaks yoneld:
#11191: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:38:03 AM

[up] Why am I not surprised.

Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11192: Aug 4th 2016 at 6:15:14 AM

Because HAMAS is an evil organisation?

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11193: Aug 4th 2016 at 6:19:57 AM

I am. Their schtick is supposed to be "NO CORRUPTION".

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The dark Mage of the playground
#11194: Aug 4th 2016 at 6:46:07 AM

Meh. HAMAS is grass. If they justify killing children in their homes its only natural they justify stealing from charity.

In other news: An insane asshole ultrarightwing rapper is a new name in the Likud, joining a known criminal in a best buddy interparty coalition to shift everything so right i wouldnt be surprised if they started chopping off their hands. Any reccomandation on which enlightned progressive western country should i flee to?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#11195: Aug 4th 2016 at 6:55:53 AM

[up][up] I suspect that they'd argue that the aid organisation's are corrupt and in the thrall of "western-Jewish-bankers" and as such only HAMAS itself can be trusted to use the money in a non-corrupt fashion. They'd be full of shit, but that's what they'd argue.

There's a reason HAMAS don't allow elections anymore, it's because if they did they might well loose because their anti-corruption, pro-helping people, platform hasn't exactly happened.

[up] Canada is currently top of the docket for western countries to flee to, though Scotland may be a good choice come independence.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
yoneld Thus speaks yoneld: from Haifa, Israel Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Thus speaks yoneld:
#11196: Aug 4th 2016 at 7:20:43 AM

[up] Good thing I'm eligible for Canadian citizenship then.

The Shadow may very well be the next Trump.

Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11197: Aug 4th 2016 at 9:03:55 AM

Sweden is pretty cool. In every sense of the word.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11198: Aug 4th 2016 at 10:23:42 AM

Back when my mum lived there in the late eighties they were pretty antisemitic there.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11199: Aug 4th 2016 at 10:55:07 AM

That... seems out of character. At least in the present day, the few Jewish friends I made here have never complained. How did they go about being antisemitic?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#11200: Aug 4th 2016 at 11:08:38 AM

Hm, I'm not sure, but I'll ask her when she returns home later today.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

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