Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Thus speaks yoneld:
@Silas - the kids committing suicide thing is just the regular bullshit you hear from Palestinian officials. However, I don't recall anyone ever saying outright until now that they're never going to negotiate with Israel.
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
No negiotations and no one-on-one negotiations is not the same thing.
A procrastination in of itself
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Regular bullshit is the kind that most needs calling out, least it become accepted. As for negotiation, I thought it was no direct negotiation, which seems to just mean that they won't do anything unless a third party is involved as a middleman, which considering how quickly emotions come to dominate discussions isn't the worst idea ever.
United Earth
Complete with Tactful Translation.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Tactful Translation can lead to awful things, like people believing that they were promised things they didn't.
United Earth
I said tactful, not misleading. The point is to censor pointless provocation, posturing, and other forms of sabotage. And to adapt language to culturally appropriate relative levels of directness.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
That sounds like a job for the ultimate neutral person. Anyway, aren't negotiations usually conducted in English?
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
No, no need for neutrality. Just competence and professionalism.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Thing is, if the third party is conceived as biased the side thinking that might not want them around.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
That's why each side brings their own interpreter/intercessor.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Nickolay Mladenov, the UN’s special envoy to the Middle East, gave JPost an interview. He says some interesting things, I think.
Choombi
(not sure if I'm being on-topic, only read the last page)
My impression is that both the Israeli government and the Palestinian authority are content to maintain the status quo for as long as possible, I've seen childish accusations from both sides of how it's their fault, not ours, implying neither is actually interested in making any progress.
Israel is trying to slowly take over the west bank, ultimately building towards having a Jewish majority there, and the Palestinians are content to..be corrupt, i guess? I must be missing something.
Thinking things through is unfun, better make stuff up on the spot.
A procrastination in of itself
Also Hamas, whose leadership safe in the Gulf enjoy a life of luxury due to taking the money they get every time they start a fight with Israel.
But yeah that's kinda it, all three sets of leaders care only about themselves and would loose power if the conflict ended peacefully, they also don't have the means to end it with a full win, so they'd rather eternal war then a peace that would cost them their jobs.
edited 26th Feb '16 2:58:39 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
The law in the night
At this point I usually crack a joke or sneery comment about the whole situation.
Hamas always starts firing rockets and sending operatives on Israel when their leaders are running out of money to pay their 7 stars hotels and the Likud always starts messing with Palestinians when they feel like they are losing support.
Inter arma enim silent leges
(Avatar by Coffee)
Basically. We have a (black humour, grim) joke that wars (operations, whatever you call them) come every two years in the summer. Which means this summer's probably gonna be even hotter than usual.
United Earth
Summer days
Drifted away
But-oh ah ah
The su-u-mmer nights...
(Avatar by Coffee)
Comparison between Palestinian and Nazi propaganda, courtesy of the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs.
Abbas isn't good for peace. Warning: contains neocon thinking.
United Earth
They make a good point on the incitement part.
On the Nazi Propaganda part, I feel like the only difference between the Palestinian propaganda and any other type of "This
◊ is
◊ the
◊ Enemy
◊" propaganda is that the figures caricatured are prominently Jewish. Which, given how Israel operates, is trivial. Sorry, but this invocation of Godwin's Law is unjustified.
A procrastination in of itself
No it's not, the wrongdoing of the Israeli goverment in conflating Israel and Jews does not excuse Palestinian groups when they do the same.
Yes it's hypocritical coming from the Israeli goverment and the Godwin is unnecessary, but let's not pretend that it's not an anti-Semitic racist caricature, honestly the Nazi stuff is pretty similar to the ones you linked, I guess racist propaganda is similar all round, Nazi or no Nazi.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
It's not about race as such, it's about whatever marks The Enemy, whatever attributes are (stereo)typical of them. Israel justifies everything it does in the name of advancing Jewish interests, claims to speak in the name of all Jews, and in fact is overwhelmingly popular with Jews worldwide. Caricatures are the realm of easy conflations and oversimplifications, because the complexity of truth and nuance gets in the way of the intensity of emotion and drive to action one wishes to convey. Caricatures are not fair, nor are they meant to be.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
Then perhaps reasonable international actors shouldn't resort to caricatures?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
No, they should not, if they are, as you say, "reasonable".
edited 27th Feb '16 4:35:19 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
HGW XX/7
Depicting Jews as long-nosed, greasy-haired, bespectacled and be-yarmulka'd octopi controlling the world has nothing to do with race. It's only adopting the same propaganda tropes used by genocidal antisemites for decades. But nothing to do with race really. /s
Jesus Christ. This is why we can't have nice things.
edited 28th Feb '16 4:18:46 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
I thought he meant the mechanisms of propaganda.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
I very much doubt that a switch in tactics would lead to a change in targets.