Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
HGW XX/7
Did Banksy ask permission? One hopes he did. "Hello there, poor starving Gazaite, I'm from the developed world and I would like to draw on your ruined house."
Schild und Schwert der Partei
United Earth
"My art might make you rich."
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
... "Here, get yourself a new house with a pool," doesn't usually need to waste too much time over the informed consent thing, though. :/ More informing, however, would have been a good idea.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Graffiti, solicited or otherwise, seems to be fairly common and accepted in Gaza. When Palestinians were interviewed about the images, they seemed confused but pleased that an internationally famous artist was contributing to the scene.
Is Israel's nuclear program being discussed at all in regards to the iran nuclear negotiations ? It's like the elephant in the room. Bibi is going on and on about how these negotiations are a mistake while his own country has its own nukes- more than a little hypocritical . I don't think these will really work unless something is also done about Israel's nukes. After all they are the primary reason Iran would want nukes in the first place iirc.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Last time I checked, Israel doesn't have a history of anti-Iranism, nor did any Israeli leaders threaten to wipe Iran off the map. That's a bad comparison, what you're making here.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
It is a bit too late to stop Israel from having the nukes. Iran doesn't have them yet and there is really no good reason to let them. Never mind it is not a good idea to let any more countries start developing and stock piling them.
Who watches the watchmen?
And if Iran grabs them then Saudi Arabia in particular and the Gulf States in general will likely start up their own programs. And a nuclear arms race is the last thing the ME needs.
But talks are the only way to prevent Iran from getting nukes and the Israeli government needs to realize this. Sanctions didn't stop North Korea (which is far more isolated than Iran) and military action will only delay the program and will convince Tehran that nukes are necessary for national defense.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
(Avatar by Coffee)
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah Israeli nukes are set in stone by this point, plus Israel has one of the best arguments in the world for needing nukes.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
About the whole "Iranian propaganda about wiping Israel out" thing: anybody remember the Soviet attitude towards the imperialistic, capitalist pigs of the West and how Washington and the US should be glassed? Or some of the hot air warhawks in the US spouted quite a lot about what they could do to the USSR. Anybody?
Show me the nuked skeleton of a country or city that resulted from such vehemently heated rhetoric... that isn't in Japan. 
edited 10th Apr '15 6:49:48 PM by Euodiachloris
And even the call that Japan should be glassed was a bluff...mainly cause the US didn't have the bombs to do so.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Just because it should happen doesn't mean I think it will. But politicians ignoring their military and intelligence experts is nothing new.
edited 10th Apr '15 7:52:27 PM by Rationalinsanity
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Not exactly comforting given how dangerously close the US and the USSR went to going beyond bluffing.
Who watches the watchmen?
United Earth
Thank god for Ozzy and the Squid.
They do, they have a special place in their hearts for it, and they constantly call of Iran to be occupied. If that includes a name change or a balkanization, then it's also "wiping off the map".
edited 10th Apr '15 9:51:18 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Came close, but didn't. Nor has India glasses Pakistan or visa versa. And, the amount of bad blood there is pretty sodding hefty.
Why is Iran so effingly, specially, dangerously scary? Or, does Israel just get scared of having an actual dance partner in the region they can't just meddle with or walk over?
edited 10th Apr '15 10:44:33 PM by Euodiachloris
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
The latter, I suppose, as the Iranian government (or at least the Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution) does indeed arm Hezbollah, and their new kit did give the IDF a miserable time during the last war in Lebanon.
Indiana Solo
Iran's supporting many of Israel's enemies, funding terroists, ect. It's a thread to them for sure, can't blame them.
I'm baaaaaaack
United Earth
From which Iran needs to be banned. But mods won't do it, despite all the hollers!
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
V
...but Israel covertly supported Iran during the Iran Iraq War, didn't they?
Keep Rolling On
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Euo: And what makes you think that will always be the case? All it takes is one bad day and the US and USSR came very very close to having that bad day. I don't think you realistically appreciate how close it was even on accident. It has been partly down to luck, timing, and having the right person around at the right moment. That is not always a guarantee and can never be.
I could care less about who it involves the fact of the matter these weapons are dangerous beyond any other we have. Unless you are the almighty, a god, higher being or other entity of inordinate power you nor any other human on the face of the earth can guarantee there will never be a point where the unthinkable happens. One of the best ways to reduce that chance from happening is make sure fewer of them are around. It would be nice someday if the nukes were not around but for now we have to live with the ones that exist now. I am not even comfortable with Israel having them. Hell I would be happy if the only nukes on earth went off decades ago. Adding more to the mix is a not a good idea no matter how you try and slice it.
edited 10th Apr '15 11:55:37 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
Indiana Solo
And the US supported the USSR in World War 2. Weird shit happens in war.
I'm baaaaaaack
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Yes yes it does.
So what happened with all the political wrangling a few pages back?
Who watches the watchmen?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The North Koreans have nukes, and haven't triggered the planet exploding yet. Iran is far more stable than them.
What's precedent ever done for us?
I am not worried that Iran would use nukes to destroy the world; I am worried that they would use nukes to make themselves immune to the international community. For example, if Saddam Hussain had nukes when he had invaded kuwait, the golf war would never had happened. The rest of the world would have just sent condemnations and move on, accepting the annexation.
Basically I don't think they are evil or crazy, I am just worried that they would change the delicate balance of power in the world which could have unforeseen consequences.
In positive news, Gaza police have stepped in after a local man was conned into selling a Banksy artwork on his property for a pittance.
What's precedent ever done for us?