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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5801: Nov 23rd 2014 at 9:05:21 AM

Israel's military said it had fired warning shots before shooting at two people approaching the security fence.

I doubt it.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#5802: Nov 23rd 2014 at 9:38:47 AM

They will always say that they fired warning shots. Any pragmatically-smart government will, by the simple logic that publicly admitting on your own to not doing so is political suicide.

What needs to be done is to mandate giving actual proof that proper protocols were followed... which is admittedly unfeasible, unless you can put a wireless video camera on every soldier's helmet.

edited 23rd Nov '14 9:40:17 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5803: Nov 23rd 2014 at 9:48:28 AM

As a matter of fact, you can.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5805: Nov 23rd 2014 at 10:11:25 AM

The latter.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The dark Mage of the playground
#5806: Nov 23rd 2014 at 12:01:22 PM

Well its standard procedure to shot warning shots first, despite what you might want to hear about my country.

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#5807: Nov 23rd 2014 at 12:27:41 PM

Are we suggesting all Isaeli soldiers be forced to wear Go Pros?

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
yoneld Thus speaks yoneld: from Haifa, Israel Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Thus speaks yoneld:
#5808: Nov 23rd 2014 at 12:41:41 PM

[up][up] Yeah - if they really didn't fire warning shots, they'd probably be facing trial.

Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
SilasW A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5809: Nov 23rd 2014 at 12:52:44 PM

[up] I doubt they'd face trial, Israel doesn't put soldiers who use human shields on trial except in rare cases.

Though I expect they did fire warning shots, even if one assumes they have no regard for life. If a person goes away after a warning shot it's a lot less work for you then if you shoot and kill them. There's probably a lot of paperwork involved if a border guard shooting someone and soldiers hate paperwork.

Plus I don't subscribe to the idea that Israel solders have a lesser degree of belief in sanctity of life than other soldiers.

However I wouldn't be surprised if the standing orders were for only a single warning shot followed by taking out the possible threat. With no room for checking if they actually noticed the warning shot or not shooting if they're not doing anything risky beyond being where they shouldn't be.

edited 23rd Nov '14 12:54:30 PM by SilasW

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
yoneld Thus speaks yoneld: from Haifa, Israel Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Thus speaks yoneld:
#5810: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:05:43 PM

It's a border with an enemy territory. Anyone who goes near there may very well be Too Dumb to Live - it's pretty damn hard not to notice a giant fence with soldiers guarding it.

Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
SilasW A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5811: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:19:48 PM

Or desperate because the border keeps constantly expanding to include all the good territory and the choice is between risking getting shot or having no way to sustain your life.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5812: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:22:11 PM

Are we suggesting all Isaeli soldiers be forced to wear Go Pros?

I think something similar has been done for cops in other countries. They have a bad habit of 'malfunctioning' right before the cops find themselves needing to make an arrest or shoot someone. Cops worldwide have also been known to seek out any cameras around the site of their work, and breaking or confiscating them.

what you might want to hear about my country.

There's a lot of things I want to hear about your country, things like 'we haven't been in an armed conflict in decades' and 'we're a hub of science and commerce in the Middle East' and 'Israeli society is harmonious and well-balanced' and 'our neighbour sovereign Palestine has become our best partner and collaborator in economic, education and foreign policy matters'. 'Our soldiers lie about giving warning shots' is not among them.

I don't subscribe to the idea that Israel solders have a lesser degree of belief in sanctity of life than other soldiers.

Neither do I, but I suspect that many of them classify 'Arab life' as a somewhat less valuable flavour, if not something that is outright trash—vermin in need of cleanup.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#5813: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:27:11 PM

I think something similar has been done for cops in other countries. They have a bad habit of 'malfunctioning' right before the cops find themselves needing to make an arrest or shoot someone. Cops worldwide have also been known to seek out any cameras around the site of their work, and breaking or confiscating them.

But soldiers aren't Police.

'we're a hub of science and commerce in the Middle East'

Actually, isn't that the case for Israel?

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5814: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:32:14 PM

No, right now it's a bubble, trading with everyone but its neighbours, with some exceptions. And Israeli soldiers do function as 'police' as long as they're 'occupiers'.

edited 23rd Nov '14 1:35:38 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#5815: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:34:47 PM

Not directly, anyhow.

Keep Rolling On
SilasW A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5816: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:35:13 PM

Neither do I, but I suspect that many of them classify 'Arab life' as a somewhat less valuable flavour, if not something that is outright trash—vermin in need of cleanup.

Yeah that kinda means you do think they care less about the sanctity of life than other solders.

I suspect that someone of them do subscribe to that idea, simply because it's one that is alarmingly popular in Israel (in that it is in any way popular and acceptable), but I'm not going to say many. You're effectively saying that many Israel soldiers are racists who hate arabs.

Now I suspect that the Israel military as an organisation does indeed place little to no intrinsic value on the life of Palestinians, and only values such lives when valuing them profits benefits/prevents hard. The ID Fs desire to legalise the use of Palestinians as human shields rather proves that point.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#5817: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:44:19 PM

Although, I'm not sure anyone's mentioned that economic austerity and budget cuts are also happening in Israel, including to the IDF.

edited 23rd Nov '14 1:46:48 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5818: Nov 23rd 2014 at 1:54:10 PM

Wake me up when 2008 ends.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#5819: Nov 23rd 2014 at 2:15:42 PM

The lack of value they place on Palestinian life probably has something to with the constant cheers from their side that comes up every time theirs some terrorist attack. I am not supporting the assertion that this lack of concern is valid. However if we are going to have people jumping through hoops to make excuses for those guys who shot up a Synagog, then I should do the same for the Israeli soldiers,even if I do not believe they have a right to randomly mow down Palestinians,which by the way,in this instance,has yet to be proven.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5820: Nov 23rd 2014 at 2:29:50 PM

if we are going to have people jumping through hoops to make excuses for those guys who shot up a Synagog, then I should do the same for the Israeli soldiers

How about the inverse: "if we are going to have people who go out of their way not to make excuses for those guys who shot up a Synagog, then I should do the same about the Israeli soldiers".

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
ManInGray from Israel Since: Jul, 2011
#5821: Nov 23rd 2014 at 2:40:39 PM

the border keeps constantly expanding to include all the good territory
The border hadn't moved in years, and in the last times it did, our territory shrunk. And if I remember correctly, the agreement at the end of the last flareup with Gaza shrunk the buffer zone, for reasons beyond my comprehension.

Something ugly: A collection of quotes and posters from some very vile samples of Israeli society
There's quite a bit of bullshit in that page. The Danny Dannon quote is fabricated(couldn't find it in Hebrew). The coroner hired by the bus driver's family agreed with the others that it was suicide until he was pressured to change his version; Not that it matters, it doesn't even take an actual death for us to be accused of murder. The authorities did not claim that the murder of the Arab teenager in Jerusalem was an 'honor killing'; That was just a rumor(and not the only one). As for violence by Palestinians against Israelis being magnified and exaggerated; It happens pretty much every day. So routine, it usually doesn't make the news, even here.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#5822: Nov 23rd 2014 at 2:47:26 PM

Plus I don't subscribe to the idea that Israel solders have a lesser degree of belief in sanctity of life than other soldiers.

Yeah, about that...

An IDF medic was surprised to hear two new orders given by his superiors: only Jews are worthy of resuscitation, and that attackers who pose no threat should be shot dead.

New orders in the Israeli army? D., a medic in the infantry, was surprised last week to find out during training for an operation in the occupied territories that at least two orders typically given to soldiers have been refreshed.

“During the refresher course the instructor, who works as a medic on the base, told us that the orders of the IDF are not to give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to people we do not know. When asked about it he said that it basically means that we do not need to resuscitate Palestinians,” says D., who took part in the course at the Lakhish base in southern Israel. D. has since then left for duty in the West Bank.

“It sounds strange but he repeated it twice, so I have no doubt that that was what he meant. I was very surprised by the order not to resuscitate anyone who needs it. Since then I have come to understand that Magen David Adom (Israel’s national emergency medical, disaster and ambulance service) came up with the order regarding mouth-to-mouth resuscitation several years ago. The emphasis on the Palestinians was probably the instructor “thinking ahead.” I assume that he goes these trainings all the time. That’s worrying.”

Furthermore over the course of the week, D. participated in a refresher on the rules of engagement, where he said he was given permission to kill people who pose no threat. “They told us that the order regarding someone who stabs, ditches the knife and begins running is shoot to kill. The company commander said he doesn’t want anyone like that “to see a judge.”

Did anyone protest or critique these orders?

“The company seemed very bitter over the rules of engagement. The company commander almost apologized every time he forbade. So when he finally gave us permission to shoot an unarmed terrorist, most of the company was okay with that.”

It was only two weeks ago that Public Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovich gave a similar order to Israeli Police in the wake of the vehicular attack in Sheikh Jarrah. Two days later police shot Kheir Hamdan to death in Kafr Kanna.

The IDF Spokesperson has yet to respond to the above claims.

In other news, Israel has begun demolishing the homes of terror suspects in Jerusalem, a procedure abandoned years ago due to doubts about its legality and effectiveness, and the Cabinet has approved a new law legally defining Israel as a Jewish state that would grant additional 'national rights' (Netanyahu's words) to Jewish citizens and remove Arabic as a second official language.

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5823: Nov 23rd 2014 at 3:03:43 PM

First of all, it is not a matter of 'idea' or 'subscription', it is a matter of 'fact' and 'acceptance'; we're not talking about a suggested doctrine, we're talking about an empirical observation.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
ManInGray from Israel Since: Jul, 2011
#5824: Nov 23rd 2014 at 3:08:45 PM

..remove Arabic as a second official language.
The law does not say that. Quite the contrary.

“They told us that the order regarding someone who stabs, ditches the knife and begins running is shoot to kill. The company commander said he doesn’t want anyone like that “to see a judge.”
I doubt that's true either(it would not be legal), (-redacted-) but who values life more; The soldier who kills a would-be killer and therefore removes a long-term threat, or the politician who releases him?

edited 23rd Nov '14 3:44:44 PM by ManInGray

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#5825: Nov 23rd 2014 at 3:23:49 PM

[up]Don't really believe in the rule of law, do you? I mean, you do at least acknowledge that the same justification would allow Palestinian militants to execute every Israeli soldier they capture, right?

Well, the LA Times and the Jerusalem Post are both backing the Guardian up on this, and Haaretz notes that whilst there were promises that the more extreme version of the bill would be merged with a softer version that didn't include stuff like the official-language removal, the cabinet was only allowed to vote on the extreme one, and Netanyahu gave Tzipi Livni a chewing-out for only promising to back the (relatively) moderate draft:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet on Sunday approved a controversial bill to enshrine into Israeli law the status of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.

The bill that passed was a combination of two bills, one proposed by Knesset members Ayelet Shaked and Yariv Levin, and the other by MK Zeev Elkin. The bill, which includes tough wording that both Justice Minister Tzipi Livni and Yesh Atid ministers oppose, will be incorporated into another version Netanyahu plans to present later this week.

Fourteen ministers supported the bills in Sunday's vote and six opposed them (the five Yesh Atid ministers and Livni.)

The wording of the proposed law will be based on 14 principles that the prime minister formulated to enshrine Israel as the historic homeland of the Jewish people and determine that all of its citizens will have equal personal rights.

The ministers, however, were not asked to vote on Netanyahu's version at Sunday's meeting. Instead, they voted on a deal in which they supported the extreme versions of the bills proposed by Elkin, Levin and Shaked, who will withdraw their bills after they are passed in a preliminary reading in the Knesset and back Netanyahu's "softened" version.

The ministers' commitment to backing Netanyahu's bill is a condition for it to be presented to the coalition on Sunday, and Shaked and Elkin both said Saturday that they accept Netanyahu's principles.

Economy Minister Naftali Bennett lauded the bill, saying it would rescue south Tel Aviv from "infiltrators."

"The next time a law meant to stop infiltrators is brought to the High Court of Justice, the court will also have to consider that Israel is the 'nation-state of the Jewish people' and not just 'human dignity and freedom.' This is an important message for the residents of south Tel Aviv and for the entire country."

Coalition chairman Yariv Levin, who proposed one of the bills, said, "Today we took a step of historic significance to return Israel to its Zionist roots, after years of ongoing damage done by the justice system to the principles on which the state was founded."

Levin lashed out at Yesh Atid chairman Yair Lapid, calling his instruction to fellow Yesh Atid ministers to vote against the bill because it harms Israel's democracy a "bad joke at the expense of the future of Israel."

Meretz chairwoman Zahava Gal-On said that Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition partners are committing a "crime against Israeli democracy, and will be responsible for one of the blackest stains on Israeli law."

Gal-On said that even Netanyahu's tamer version of the bill undermines the principle of equality and turns Israel's Arab population into second-class citizens.

'A flaccid stance doesn't serve the current reality'

During the meeting, a heated debate erupted as Netanyahu called Livni "flaccid" for her stance on the controversial issue.

"We wouldn't be here if Livni had conducted herself differently. A flaccid stance doesn't serve the current reality," Netanyahu reportedly told Livni during the deliberation.

Netanyahu was referring to Livni's announcement over the weekend that she would only support a softened version of the bill that the prime minister was expected to present in the coming weeks.

Livni, who just last week proposed a toned-down version of the bill, is expected to vote for Netanyahu’s version if it is based on the principles that have been made public, because, according to her inner circle, the principles in Livni’s version of the bill are contained in Netanyahu’s.

Livni’s version of the bill says the state will maintain “equality for all its citizens.” Her support for Netanyahu’s version, which does not expressly contain the word “equality,” is based on the opinion of the Justice Ministry that Netanyahu’s version contains the spirit of equality.

After Netanyahu assailed her, Livni shot back, "If all this nonsense is just to get back at me, then you won. Now let's discuss the essence [of the bill] before you all ruin the country."

"You want us to vote against it so that you'll be able to fire us," Livni said to Netanyahu. "Your speech this morning, with its niceties about the Declaration of Independence and [Ze'ev] Jabotinsky and equality, doesn't disguise Elkin's bill, which bears no resemblance to your words. ... Is the nation-state bill a cover for a political exercise? If not, then agree to postpone the discussion on Wednesday and have a real discussion with us about content before you ruin the country."

Netanyahu submitted the bill for the government's approval over the objections of, and despite his relationship with, Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein. The attorney general is usually proud of his good relations with the prime minster, thanks to which he has managed to prevent all kinds of initiatives the public does not even know about, such as Netanyahu's to shut down Channel 10 and problematic appointments.

Weinstein has said that he does not confront the prime minister head on or in the press because he believes he can discretely achieve results through secret channels.

edited 23rd Nov '14 3:38:32 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

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