Ambiguous Name (New Alt Names crowner 10/5/2015): Mac Guffin Girl

Beloved Mac Guffin maybe?

I think there's a pretty big difference between a MacGuffin that's a person and an object. Let's compare, for example, the hero's kidnapped daughter versus his stolen favorite shoes (first example off the top of my head). Both were chosen solely because the hero would miss them and want them back, both plot-wise and in-universe. But the daughter is going to shape the plot very differently than the shoes. Even if the daughter never gets a single line, the kidnappers still have to feed her and have difficulties transporting and hiding her that a pair of shoes don't provide. Not to mention that it's easier for a daughter to speak up and become slightly plot relevant than the shoes.

Those are in-universe logistical concerns, though, not differences in storytelling structures. The point is that the bad guy has taken a Thing that's important to the good guy, rather than something generally valuable (eg, a briefcase full of cash or a map to buried pirate treasure) or something that has importance to the fate of the world as a whole (eg, a Barrier Maiden or a Cosmic Keystone).

Stealing a formula and stealing a car are going to shape the plot differently too. It doesn't change the underlying trope.

Yeah, I think we can just mention in the description that it could be a regular MacGuffin as well as a Mac Guffin Person.

Okay, I still disagree, but I can tell when I'm outvoted.

Bump. What's the plan now?

The vote seems in favor of splitting Mundane MacGuffin Person into two tropes. I think we should brainstorm the possible names for both, and make a crowner for them.

I think it would be a good idea to send them through YKTTW as new tropes and move their discussion over there. They're more of a tangent as far as this repair effort is concerned, so putting the thread on hold for them would just slow the process down unnecessarily. (Our prerogative is fixing existing tropes, not launching new ones, and this is a case where launching the new trope isn't relevant to fixing the existing one.)

edited 28th Sep '15 4:11:25 PM by troacctid

so move to YKTTW and close this? or what else needs to happen in this discussion thread

Well we still need to actually change the stuff we're changing, so we can't just close the thread. Currently we have a bunch of sandboxes that aren't live yet.

edited 29th Sep '15 1:56:20 AM by troacctid

I can launch the sandboxes right this second if we're sure they're done. Then I'll redirect Holy Child, The President's Daughter, and MacGuffin Girl to Living MacGuffin and start cleaning the wicks.

Sandboxes are: Living Mac Guffin, Mac Guffin Person Reveal, MacGuffin Turned Human, Mac Guffin Hostage, Mundane Mac Guffin Person, Mac Guffin Super Person.

I still think Mac Guffin Hostage needs a better name. The current one says nothing about the character being sought because of their status and/or background.

Also, there's a part in the description which talks about the character being sought out for their abilities, which is not this trope.

And maybe it's better to phrase it in a more gender neutral way, while still keeping the mention that it's usually a woman (and quite often, an importan person's daughter).

Fixed up the description a bit.

If we're planning to do the split version of Mundane Macguffin Person later, we should skip the lumped version.

Macguffin Super Person is kind of in The Same But More Specific territory right now IMO. The name is a snowclone, and all the description has to say is that it's a type of Living MacGuffin with a specific quality, which doesn't help its case much.

I'm sorry Tro, but you're the only one saying that about Macguffin Super Person. We've had multiple crowners on the topic. That case is closed.

In point of fact, we had one crowner, for the name, with only one option on it, and I don't believe we've discussed its tropability at all. Considering it's still in the draft stage, it's clearly not set in stone.

If you think it's tropeworthy, could you speak a little as to why the character's supernatural nature is not an arbitrary distinction? Right now, the description doesn't make a good case at all, the name is a snowclone, and the examples are a miscellaneous hodgepodge. We also already have Barrier Maiden and Apocalypse Maiden covering two of the main archetypes.

Well, the first crowner (proposed here) passed without anyone complaining about MacGuffin Super-Person. The second relevant crowner (proposed here) had a number of name possibilities, and passed without anyone complaining about the trope itself. And the third crowner (proposed here, but discussed a bit earlier here) is not closed, but has a clear majority for splitting Mundane MacGuffin Person while leaving MacGuffin Super-Person (and everything else) as is.

@314: This description is much better. I still think the name might need changing.

I agree, but I still haven't been able to come up with anything, and it did win the crowner. If you don't have any suggestions, I think we just have to go with it.

Let's try brainstorming it first.

E.g. how about High Status Mac Guffin Person or Very Important Mac Guffin Person.

Kidnapped Princess?

I like Kidnapped Princess.

Kidnapped Princess is quite consise, but it might lead to overly narrow misuse, though (tropers might only use it for literal princesses).

I bet if we seed it with non-princess examples, a non-princess page quote, and maybe a non-princess page image, we'd make that less likely.