Covenant Academy - Discussion Thread

So, yeah...

Signup thread's here.

RP thread will be up by the end of the week, hopefully.

Burn up, hurricane of justice!

This should be fun, eh-heh.

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."

ALL KNEEL BEFORE THE HYPERION LOLI.

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Character's been updated again, hopefully for the final time.

Time grows thin, the past's a riddle; The Tower awaits you in the middle.

What exactly is the dividing line for "mythology"? I've got some interesting ideas but I'm not sure if they're borderline or not, but it's much more interesting than my fallback of Loki and Fenris.

EDIT: To clarify, my idea is a fusion of sailor superstition regarding the Flying Dutchman, a sprinkling of banshee, and a ship who earned her fame about seventy years back. Someone else is toying with the idea of MIB. Myself I'd consider both of them to be within bounds, but I figured better safe than sorry.

edited 21st Jul '13 9:23:33 PM by Wysp

"Your mission is not to nuke the squid god." —Faramir

Well, um... the Flying Dutchman could definitely work. I'm not sure what other boat you're referencing, though, and, um... I don't think the MIB fit at all. How would they even work?

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."

The USS Eldridge of Philadelphia Experiment fame?

Maybe the US Navy got their hands on the Flying Dutchman briefly.

You must agree, my plan is sheer elegance in its simplicity! My Tumblr

The other ship I'm referencing is the Grey Ghost, AKA the USS Enterprise. The most legendary ship in the USN, I think she should stand just fine.

As for the MIB, "Lots of people believe in the group for causing phenomena around the world, though it existeth not. And lots of people believed in it for a long, long, long time. See: Freemason conspiracies, Illuminati conspiracies, Jewish conspiracies...Sure, none of it is actually true, but given the number of people willing to blame conspiracies for everything and anything (not to mention the number of people who gain political advantage by blaming conspiracies, which is why half of Egypt believes the CIA backed Morsi and the other half believes it backed the coup), it's easily the size of a major religion."

"Your mission is not to nuke the squid god." —Faramir

Flying Dutchman? Yes. Banshee? Sure. 1940s battleship? Probably not. MIB? No.

The big problem here is if there's a shadowy group responsible for strange phenomena...they're probably humans. Not magical beings from the same world as assorted spirits, monsters and gods. Especially seeing as said spirits, monsters and gods generally can't do anything in the human world unless it's through a contractor.

Burn up, hurricane of justice!

Ach, having a grey matron carrying a shotgun and causing hallucinations of the distant Pacific seemed like fun. (I should probably mention she was the namesake of Star Trek's most famous ship. If that's not legendary, letting alone her own feats, I don't know what is.) Also, the Big E was a carrier, not a battleship. As for the MIB, well...All I need to say are "greys," and "Lizardmen."

edited 21st Jul '13 9:49:52 PM by Wysp

"Your mission is not to nuke the squid god." —Faramir

The thing is, they don't actually exist. (Yes, I was the one who proposed the MIB idea. Yes, I continue to argue that it qualifies as "folklore".)

See, that's the thing about the MIB. There is no actual global conspiracy, yet people continue to believe that there is. The sun is a big ball of ionized gas undergoing constant nuclear fusion, yet people believed that it was Apollo's chariot, and Apollo qualifies as folklore. Typhoons and hurricanes are weather phenomena, yet Japanese folklore believed that it was the domain of the divine spirits, the kamikaze. That's folklore.

Well, the MIB trope qualifies as folklore, even if it is by nature an extremely diffuse, indistinct type of folklore. Secret government agencies, vast conspiracies, aliens hiding in Area 51, all those: we as a global culture came up with those stories, though most of us know they're not true. Yet there continue to be people who believe in them, and lots more people who believe in variations on them.

So in that sense, a purely fictional MIB embodying the tropes of all those theories—the more self-contradictory the better—would qualify as folklore. Even a collective sort of deity inhabiting their own domain, because the point is, as folklore, they inhabit fairyland, no matter how many people believe in their existence in the real world. So the various powers to be gained in dealing with them would be treated in exactly the same way as what someone would get in dealing with Zeus, or Thor, or the kami.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

There's a difference between conspiracy theories and myths. And if you want to go with the "people think lizardmen run the government" bit, that wouldn't even be a big conspiracy in the setting, that would just mean there are people with contracts with reptilian beings in the government.

As for the grey aliens...think less sci-fi, more fantasy.

Burn up, hurricane of justice!

I think the main point in this is that belief by itself doesn't create these beings. They exist independently of that belief. In the case of deities and such, they probably inspired belief in them. Maybe in other cases it's coincidence. But they need to exist in the separate universe, which is very solidly a fantasy setting given its populace.

As I recall, the most modern thing considered for use was the ghost train myth. If you want to put it some way, it's extremely unlikely these modern things exist in some way in-setting because of how well-documented everything is today. There really isn't room for some mythical being actually showing up except in much more minor cases. Of course, in-setting, much more major myths show up because people have contracted them, but still.

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."

The line's extremely blurred there. How long would people have needed to believe in a concept or a fictional entity for it to become fantasy? Because people have believed in Jewish conspiracies, or Illuminati or the Freemasons, for a long, long time. Since the Medieval era at least. In that sense the MIB theories are just a latest variation in a long line of stories. And by that standard, the "Gray Aliens" have been around since at least the 1950s. They're just like elves, or trolls, or kobolds, or other mythological creatures, in fact, only they're from "Mars" instead of "underground" or "the depths of the forest".

See all the things that are attributed to the MIB (mind control, weather control, fluorinated water contaminating our Precious Bodily Fluids), as well as the contradictory nature of who they're believed to be (they're aliens! No, they're lizards! No, they're Communists! No, they're Jews! No, they're replicators!) and you end up with something not far from being a mythological system. Which, I'd argue, is exactly what it is. Hell, Neil Gaiman pulled it off successfully in American Gods.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

Sabre, I'm going to be completely honest: your opinion on whether Tach should accept conspiracy theories is irrelevant. They don't fit thematically and contracts are made with a single entity.

Also, you're not even in the thread. Please leave and stop arguing a point that doesn't fit.

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I probably shouldn't have to remind you to read the RP Forum Rules, especially this one.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

To be fair, I know you're planning on joining. However, thematically, it really, really doesn't fit. I know there's some people who would also argue such things, but it's just...

Putting Grey Aliens alongside Zeus is really unfitting.

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."

...Did someone really just report Sabre for talking in a DT he's planning to join? Really?

@ Anno: While I think that a slight amount of dissonance is intended, the general idea was to play the MIB or the Enterprise as mythological figures—just, modern ones. Kinda like how Superman is a modern Heracles, for example. However, if you insist I suppose we can find more old-fashioned stories. What's the rules for mytho-historical figures like King Arthur or Alexander the Great or Achilles?

"Your mission is not to nuke the squid god." —Faramir

No, I know for a fact that DBL came here of his own accord. In as much as I disagree with the both of you, I don't think you've done anything report-worthy. If you hadn't planned on joining the game, yeah, but, um... anyway.

King Arthur and Achilles would work out fine. Alexander the Great maybe, I'm not sure if there's as much myth circulating about him.

edited 22nd Jul '13 9:48:40 AM by AnnoR

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."

Alright, my mistake. That's just what it looked like.

Anyway, I am fairly certain that there's quite a bit of myth surrounding Alexander the Great (the Gordian Knot, for one). Let me go come up with a new concept for my character...

EDIT: To clarify, I don't mean to be a bother. I just had a neat idea, and it's been nixed so ah well.

edited 22nd Jul '13 10:46:32 AM by Wysp

"Your mission is not to nuke the squid god." —Faramir

If GM or thread consensus decides to nix the conspiracy theory mythology—which I can understand being "thematically inappropriate", but disagree with—I will try to pursue some other avenue. Be advised, though, that I intend to explore around the edges of the conventions. Folklore doesn't have to be from antiquity, after all.

Next avenue of inquiry: there are substantial bodies of frontier myths that I'd like to explore. On the grounds that although it's better to seek forgiveness than permission, better safe than sorry this time around: I'll look into drawing from myths from the American frontier (codified and explored in The Western), or its Russian equivalent, the Ostern category, or maybe from the lore of the French Foreign Legion (see: P. C. Wren, Beau Geste, the like). They are all categories with substantial bodies of myth and legend, all with substantial cultural influence in their home countries, which promises to be interesting. (According to his location line, Tachikaze is from Australia. Wouldn't the Australian frontier and outlaw myths that led to Waltzing Matilda, or the tales about Breaker Morant, qualify as folklore?)

And if anyone's wondering why I insist on taking the nontraditional approach: because, goddammit, it's more interesting this way. For me there's no fun to be found in following the conventions and picking some antique god or goddess. Just because it's modern doesn't mean it doesn't qualify!

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

Well, it sort of does. When it's soft science fiction or looks like a half-assed mystery novel, it doesn't fit 'summon mystical beings'. Summoning individual humans or homogenous entities that are basically just 'weird men with strange toys' isn't and that is a bit of an issue.

Being extremely different because 'it's more interesting' is also something of a fallacy and just leads to this. Remember that.

edited 22nd Jul '13 3:57:47 PM by RainehDaze

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The outlaw from Waltzing Matilda wouldn't qualify because there's nothing about the character that suggests he's anything other than a normal (dead) human. Breaker Morant wouldn't qualify for the same reason, as well as the fact that he actually existed.

Burn up, hurricane of justice!

Ah, see, there's the point. Troy actually existed, actually was besieged by the Greeks. Yet the body of stories that came up around the Trojan War, as recorded by Homer, basically turned the story into myth. There may or may not have been a historical Agamemnon who organized the besiegers, or a historical Odysseus, explorer and strategist; but through enough story cycles they've been turned into superhumans of the type that qualifies.

So it is with the Wild West and, I argue, other bodies of folklore. Sure there may have been outlaws or sheriffs who did amazing feats, yet through enough tall tales and other stories, their feats evolve from "amazing" (i.e., killing three opponents in a gunfight) to "superhuman" (i.e., able to shoot an apple with a Colt from 200 paces). In the process they turn into mythological figures in their own right, just as it was for Achilles or Odysseus, or—for that matter—King Arthur or George Washington. (Yes, Washington was real. No, he did not skip a silver dollar across the Potomac River—that would have required superhuman abilities. No, the story about the cherry tree was definitely apocryphal, as was the story about the Indian chief who shot at him repeatedly, missed all the time, and then remarked that the man must have been chosen by Heaven. In that sense there's two Washingtons: the actual one and the mythologized one. With all the folk stories and mythology around him, how is the mythologized Washington different from Dido of Carthage, Aeneas of Rome, or Odysseus of Ithaca?)

The point is, you've set your rules wide by just saying "folklore", and in the spirit of exploration and fun, I want to go as far as they allow. If you think that's outside the scope of the game, narrow the rules a bit. If you want "we can't be sure it existed", be aware that Troy would have been valid through the 1800s until it was unearthed. If you want "can't be human, even in the story", you're possibly letting in Merlin and Morgan le Fay while excluding King Arthur and Sir Lancelot, or—in a more modern sense—letting in Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill while excluding Johnny Appleseed (who was real!) and Davy Crockett.*

If you narrow your rules like that, I will abide by them, but I still intend to explore the gray areas around their edges.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

You are, as it stands, trying to argue that you should be able to contract humans because they had fancy stories built around them! Yes, you could conceivably contract Merlin, because he's half demon and imprisoned in a blasted tree. No, you could not contract a historical figure, because if they manifestly existed in this world, they do not exist in that world.

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