DC Extended Universe

You can have sympathetic reasons for doing something wrong and still be wrong.

"But he isn't curious at all about Wonder Woman. Again: it's a giant plot hole. "

He is curious, but his beef is enterely with Superman and him alone, if something it only show how irracional he is right now

"why even include the Knightmare if not to show a future where Batman was right?"

to set future movies, Yes I know is pointless and drag things a lot but is not make him sympatic, the movie want to understend the why of his decision, not that is right or resonable in anyway

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

• He has been around for a couple of decades. He already encountered superpowered beings like Killer Croc.
• He never encountered superpowered beings as powerful as Superman. It's kind of the entire theme of the first two movies, that Superman takes the action to another level because he isn't in the same tier as everyone else. That's where the religious imagery comes from.
• His problems with Superman come from this power creep. At least, that is what he says. He quite obviously has some pride/projection issues, but the difference in power between Superman and everyone else is the official reason he gives to everyone.
• Diana is just another superpowered individual, maybe. He is a detective, and as such he needs proof before seriously thinking about the threat she might pose - hence "Is that you?" instead of "I know this is you". Unlike Superman, he does not have at his disposal a HD rendition of her flying at supersonic speeds and giving punches that would turn normal humans into piles of goo.
• And to top it off his lack of rationality regarding Superman (and vice-versa) is encouraged by Luthor. Luthor never did anything to make Bruce Wayne distrust Diana Prince. But he highlighted the collateral damage caused by Superman and exaggerated Batman's vigilante methods so that the two would get their testosterone up instead of taking a step back and thinking/talking about the whole thing.

Bottom line: Batman does not see Superman as "just another superpowered individual, and all superpowered individuals are equal threats". He sees Superman as the potential pinnacle of superpowered threats, because he is much more powerful than everyone else. This is why he does not automatically tries to eliminate every potential superpowered individual he encounters.

edited 17th Oct '16 4:08:52 PM by Julep

Why did they not have a novelization for Batman V Superman? It would be better if we could actually read what the characters are thinking. What would be some good Superdickery style covers for this movie if it were a comic book?

So instead of doing any research, he sends her the picture she wanted. And then does nothing about her at all, not even any fucking research. Seriously, her presence in the film is a giant plot hole, because it should trigger Batman's paranoia — here is an unknown person who clearly has powers and hasn't aged since 1918, but Batman does diddly squat about her. He says, "Is this you?" and that's it. As you said, he is a detective and he doesn't do any fucking detecting.

It makes his paranoia against Superman look stupid in comparison. "Oh, superpowered alien with super strength and flight? Yep, he's a danger to everyone, even though I have a secret weapon against him. Oh, this mysterious woman who is immortal and I have no idea what she is? She's no danger at all!"

edited 17th Oct '16 5:00:31 PM by alliterator

Because she isn't Superman.

She is, you know, Wonder Woman.

Not Superman.

Not the alien whose sole presence leads to America questioning the meaning of the word God (maybe you missed the religious imagery? I agree, Snyder was reeeeeeaally stealthy about it). She is just a mysterious woman - like all of Luthor's files - and as such she just triggers Batman's "rational curiosity", not his "irrational fear".

Again, the movie is not really subtle about the fact that Superman is not "just another superhero". He is Superman. Like he always has been in the DCU: the hero whose presence/absence/changes in behavior is/are enough to turn the world upside down (Hereafter? Injustice? A Better World? Earth-2?). Hence why Batman reacts irrationnally towards him and rationnally towards Diana.

The Superman-only irrationality is not a plot hole, it's the entire point of the fucking movie.

edited 17th Oct '16 5:30:51 PM by Julep

That doesn't excuse it. It's still a giant plot hole. If anything, the fact he doesn't know anything about her should lead him to being more paranoid. At least he knows Superman is an alien. Wonder Woman? Zip.

It's not a giant plot hole. It is a plot element you made abundantly clear you dislike, among many other plot elements you made abundantly clear you dislike. But if you actually pay attention to the themes of the movie, it is not a plot hole.

No, no, it's a plot hole. No matter how many times you say "plot element," that doesn't make it so. The themes of the movie are quite evident, but they don't excuse things that don't make any sense.

Superman is Jesus, I understand. But no matter the themes, the movie still has to make coherent sense. If Superman suddenly started bleeding from his hands, that would fit the theme, but it wouldn't make any sense. Same thing with the fact that Batman figures out that Diana is immortal and does exactly nothing about it.

"Why would he do anything?" Because she might be a danger to others and the world. "But he doesn't know if she has any other powers." Exactly, he doesn't know anything. Which should make him more paranoid. "But she hasn't done anything since 1918." That he knows about — her entire identity is a secret. "But she doesn't flash her powers like Superman does." Which should make him more paranoid, because she is an unknown quantity.

edited 17th Oct '16 6:03:48 PM by alliterator

That isn't a plot hole.

Wonder Woman wasn't involved in Wayne Financial getting destroyed and killing a bunch of kids. Wonder Woman didn't come down from the sky, hurling fireballs. Wonder Woman isn't the person making Bruce feel inadequate (that's all the other girls he takes home, ayooooo) and Wonder Woman isn't the person that tossed the Batmobile aside like it was nothing before threatening him.

The major issue Batman has with Superman is the feeling of powerlessness Superman gives him, in addition to the fact that after 20 years of fighting crime he's accomplished nothing. Killing Superman would be "the only thing [he does] that matters". He justifies that need to cement his legacy and actually feel like he's accomplished something with the 1% speech.

It's called subtext. And it isn't even that hidden. No, the character will not come out and say "Wait, I was wrong all this time and that 1% stuff was just me trying to justify my murderous actions! NOOOOOOOOO."

But feel free to continue. I know to stop myself.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

Except for the fact that Batman's excuse is that it's Superman's power that determines that he should die, not that he makes him feel weak and helpless.

And if Batman is trying to keep up that facade of wanting Superman dead because of his power, he should go after Wonder Woman as well. But he doesn't. Because: plot hole.

It would be better if he did, because without him admitting to being wrong, he just looks like an asshole.

edited 17th Oct '16 6:16:23 PM by alliterator

No, no, it's not a plot hole. No matter how many times you say "plot hole," that doesn't make it so. The flaws of the movie are quite evident, but they don't excuse claiming every single element is nonsensical.

Batman figures out that Diana is immortal and does exactly nothing about it because why would he? She did not threaten him, she did not destroy anything, she did not even attack anyone. The concept of Batman is fascist enough that it is nice to see him taking measures once there is evidence that a threat exists - not simple assumptions about someone's completely hypothetical abilities.

"Because she might be a danger to others and the world." - Thanks, Frank Miller. But superheroes are the ones who react to danger or criminal behavior, they don't anticipate it. Here, Batman reacts to Superman's various displays of power. And he doesn't react to Diana's lack thereof.

Plus, he's Batman. He might have something prepared for Diana. He just doesn't tend to flash his contingency plans for the lulz if he doesn't need to use them, as far as I know. I mean, it's how he behaved in all the stories I saw him in: he is Crazy-Prepared and as such manages to properly react to everything the enemies throw at them...but you don't see him preparing all the stuff he ends up not using.

And most of the time the countermeasures are revealed as twists during the fights. The kryptonite is an exception here because Luthor and him are fighting over it, but in the vast majority of stories, Batman having anticipated whatever the opponent threw at him comes as a surprise story-wise - like him having a power armor in the movie, for example. Point is, it's very possible he actually researched Diana and prepared random contingency measures in case she turned out to be hostile - but since she didn't, we don't see it, and Batman would have zero reason to reveal them.

But it doesn't serve the "SNYDER SUCKS" narrative, sadly :/

Ya know, these kind of arguments have been going on for about seven months now, and they're increasingly circular.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

There you go applying your own narrative to what I've said again. This is what, the fourth time?

Look who's the one constantly derailing the thread into annoying circular debates that you were just complaining about. Sure as shit isn't me since I've realized there is no point to these "discussions" anymore.

It's pretty annoying, actually. "Hey, this thing the DCEU does, I like it"

"BUT THEY DID IT WRONG!"

Every freaking week that happens.

Allow me to take this momentary reprieve from it to remind everyone that Joe Manganiello said they're starting Batman shooting next Spring, which lines up with that untitled 2018 movie.

edited 17th Oct '16 7:12:07 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

You're not helping yourself any. I'm not even trying to derail the thread, I'm trying to talk about other stuff. It's just hard when everyone is constantly arguing about stuff. I mean, I wanna ask about what characters should be in the movies, to be honest. I kinda wanna see Blue Beetle show up.

edited 17th Oct '16 7:16:17 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?