Orange Is The New Black

Took the words out of my mouth. Excellent season.

I think Jenji did want to deal with the injustices of the prison system, SJW issues or not, the way black prisoners and other POC are treated vs white prisoners is pretty much unavoidable. And with police brutality issues in the real world, it was also pretty impossible to ignore, especially in a storyline about guards abusing their powers.

The issue was that they made it an obvious accident with the single nice guard, so that people like you feel worse for the poor white dude and not the innocent black girl that got murdered. As was the fact that they had so many untrained guards working and nobody was going to have to pay for what happened.

Speaking presently of season 5, an untrained white guard ultimately killed the white CO who orchestrated this mess in the first place, Piscatella. I saw that as the show holding the system accountable, the system that created an environment where a rookie accidentally killed poussey, and wouldn't have to pay for it, same system led to one of its main enforcer Piscatella getting killed by those donig its bidding. The task force commander was like a Piscatella 2.0 and the rookie was a confused Bayley in over his head. Poetic justice.

For me this show always does something in the end that makes the whole season worth it; S2 was Rosa killing Vee and driving into sunset. This season was Piscatella dying the way he did.text I like this season lot more, but ep 11 and 12 dragged a lot, like Jenji was deliberately stalling but then his death was the glorious payoff and so well earned.

edited 10th Jun '17 2:29:19 AM by Johnny17

Finished watching that season, great as usual, although for obvious reasons it did not reach the emotional power of the previous one - for which I am thankful honestly, I am not sure it is healthy to get repeatedly depressed over a show. I get the feeling that the show has a harder time catching me off-guard now, I am not as surprised as I used to be when it tries to subvert my expectations.

It's still much more brilliant than pretty much everything else that iss airing right now, and the cast is still the strongest I can think of anywhere. Red being comic relief was a brilliant idea, as it allowed other characters a shot at being more serious - Taystee in particular who is arguably the main character of this season. The Flores/Red association managed to work, despite how unlikely it sounds. I actually enjoyed Piper again for the first time in forever - she does work better when in a couple with Alex, as Vause keeps pointing out her It's All About Me issues, making her less insufferable.

This might also have been the most cringe-inducing season, especially during the scenes where the guards get humiliated or molested. I had a hard time watching the "Litchfield got Talent" sequence as it was the most obvious reminder that some of the inmates can be just as bad, if not worse, than Piscatella's sociopathic guards. Bayley's arc was depressing - I have no idea how it compares to the real cases of police violence or vigilante killings, as some of them (the guy who shot Travyon Martin) didn't really seem affected by what he did.

I assume that the current batch of guards is going to disappear for various reasons, but I would really have liked to see more of Mc Cullough, and especially how someone like her would deal with the ordeal. She witnessed firsthand the worst in both the inmates and the guards, so I assume she wants nothing but GTFO of Litchfield now, but still.

Thankfully the ending gave more examples of inmates who, despite being flawed, look like fundamentally decent people - even Red joining them, arguably for the first time, after being at best a Noble Demon - because the risk of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy grew during the season. Outside of the bunker, it became quite hard to find an inmate to root for by the end of the season (Alison, Janae, Flaritza - who were in full-on comic relief mode for the entirety of the season - Yoga and Gina...and that's it I'd say).

Speaking of which, I would have liked a Gina flashback, and we might never get one now.

Also, I think the Janae flashback should be shown to our current minister of Education (in France), because that's basically what he wants to turn our system into, and it's frightening.

edited 14th Jun '17 9:28:06 AM by Julep

Julep, glad to hear kind sentiments from you regarding Piper. It's refreshing. Most of the hate last year for her seemed gratuitous.

It's evident that pool group is going to get shipped to MAX and they'll act as the scapegoats for this riot. That's what season 6 will be; the investigation of the riot. Litchfiled is gone. They're all being moved to different prisons which allows Jenji to focus on those 10 characters. The ensemble has gotten so big, it's becoming more and more difficult to balance everyone with equal screentime. Plus, Jenji has said she will end the show either season 7 or season 8.

That again. I just reread my previous posts and I stand by them: early S4 Piper was among the most despicable inmates we have seen at Litchfield, I can only picture Vee as obviously worse than her, and gangleader Maria is somewhat tied - but gangleader Maria happened because of Piper. In retrospect I can even forgive S1 Tucky because her background information, from my point of view, gives her many more reasons to become a horrible human being when you compare her to Piper. Also, Tucky had an actual epiphany and it stuck despite her getting many opportunities to lose hope and go back to being a dick, which is a startling contrast with Piper up until season 4 and the branding. She literally had to be marked with a red-hot iron for the aesop to stick.

Now that I think of it, Leanne and Angie after S5 also reach the "absolutely despicable" status, especially when you compare their trajectories with Tucky's. They are and have always been followers who get immediately taken by any group movement, but more than during the Norma cult they showed this time that they don't only follow, they make things actively worse through a combination of stupidity and malice. That combination is what makes their acts of actual villainy usually more entertaining to me than early-S4 Piper's, but they are no less horrible. They not only became high-grade bullies, they are full-blown rapists now, and unlike the Judy/Luschek case I got the feeling that this time around the male rape was not treated as a joke, but as something clearly wrong, even though it happened to one of the hostages you are not supposed to empathize with.

But back to Piper, her villainous arc is more palatable if you consider that it made her reach her S5 status which is, I assume, her "endgame". As in someone who is absurdly self-centered, but savvy enough to direct that in mostly positive directions (and when she isn't, Alex reminds her). Her proposal to Alex summed-up her character in very nice fashion. However, I still think her gang leader persona deserved to be hated (although once again the branding was too far), and I get the feeling Alex is now her Morality Chain and that in the next seasons we could see Bad Piper again if they get separated for some reason and there is no Red or Nicky to keep her in check.

Speaking of which, the worst thing in that season might be the Flaritza makeover Nicky got. She didn't need that to be gorgeous. Bring the curls back Jenji!

edited 14th Jun '17 3:33:11 PM by Julep

You know, you speak as if Piper killed someone. She only carried drug money, once, 10 years ago. She didn't intentionally start a Nazi group, watch Taylor's acting because it is evident she is not racist nor wanted any involvement and only used that group for protection against the Latinas and I'm only explaining this because it seems this story went over people's heads and I don't care whatever other bad stuff she's done, look at the other inmates and see their immoral actions. They're so much worse than Piper. Like Alex said (S 4 E 8) "You're not the worst person in here, Piper"

I digress. Yeah, early S4 Piper was a bitch, but post ep8, she was fine. She was seeking redemption. She apologised. Piper actually was beginning to change before the branding (ep 7), but it took the branding to tip her over the edge. She wasn't as power hungry. But what do expect? It's bloody prison! You can't expect her to be the perfect little saint. It changes people. You have to understand that. And I will defend Piper. I get it; you hate looking at yourself in the mirror, because that's what she is. She's a mirror for the mainstream audience. She's the most relatble character, but she's such a well-written anti-hero and she is annoying and unlikable. That's fine, it's just some of the hate, even now seems so gratuitous. You call her self-centred and selfish. Guess what. That's prison. Survival of the fittest. Every. Single. Inmate. in there is selfish and looks out for number one. That's what Maria did. That's what Gloria attempted to do. We will never see bad Piper again. That's it. What they went through with Piscatella, the riot, their relaionship, Carol's phonecall, everything was built for Piper to come her ending. Jenji has said she's ending the show season 7. She's wrapping the show up and that's what season 5 is doing. It's laying the foundations for the ending and everyones arcs.

Those metheads are so annoying. I hope they're written out.

Maria earns the title of the worst criminal in there. She screwed over every single inmate without a second thought and I'm assuming the pool group will be the scapefoats for this riot.

I continue to contend that Piper's biggest flaw is simple. She is a dumbass. She is a dumbass who overestimates herself and her dumb ass keeps getting into situations she can't get out of because of her dumbass tendencies. Hell, her arc from the two episodes I've seen this season is her realizing this but she can't help but be involved, because well...

And yet again, the hate is gratuitous. I have to roll my eyes.

But I am not talking about the reasons Piper is in jail - coming back to it later - I am talking about what she did once inside jail, where before the branding she was one of the most malevolent inmates. She wasn't on par with Vee, but her scheming made S1 Red look like a Benevolent Boss. She only needed protection from the Latinas because her head was too far up her ass because of her "durr durr I am a gangster now" power trip, and because she refused to collaborate with them because it threatened her "top dog" position. Then she snitched on them without a second thought, despite it causing a prolonged sentence for Maria. Then she started a white pride posse. Oh, and inbetween that, her trying to manipulate Piscatella caused the guards to start frisking the nonwhite inmates. This is what led to Flores' protest and, eventually, Poussey's death.

OITNB is a show about girls in jail and what they do once in jail. And I might add that while Piper's crime is rather light...so are the crimes of most inmates who don't really are "deeply malevolent". The inmates with a crime that can be considered to be undoubtedly more heinous than Piper's aren't that numerous - you have Red, obviously, and also Brandy, Frieda, Miss Claudette, Chang, Tucky, Morello, Rosa, Vee, and, well, Alex. Flores and Norma might belong here but there is a huge YMMV.

The other inmates are either here, most likely, for possession (Poussey, Nicky, probably Leanne and Angie, Tricia back in S1, Yoga Jones), fraud or theft (Sophia, Gloria, Cindy, Boo, arguably Flaca) or being accessories to other people's criminal enterprises - so, like Piper (Taystee, Daya, Aleida, Maritza, Janae). And that's ignoring Suzanne or Lolly who get to Litchfield despite needing psychiatric help. Or Maria whose cause for being jailed is unknown but is likely to be pretty similar to Piper's - aka accessory in drug trafficking. And that still leaves Soso or Sister Ingalls whose crimes of being protesters are hardly more heinous than Piper's either.

So saying that there is much worse than Piper in Litchfield is true, but she isn't "clearly better" than the average inmate. She is about average, you can either see her on the "good" side of that average because what she did only happened once, or on the "bad" side of that average because unlike many mentioned above she definitely got a shot to live a honest, successful life and chose not to.

I don't consider it hate. She isn't intentionally malicious or evil. Most of the time. This isn't Oz where Tobias Beecher, the middle class guy in prison gets turned into a literal killer.

No, some of you vilify her MORE and WORSE than inmates who have committed crimes worse than Piper. THAT'S my contention and I'm sick and tired of hearing it. Get over it. She is who she is.

The Piper hate is ridiculous at the point. Don't get me wrong. I loved what the show has done for representation of women of all types on TV. It is amazing. But what makes me interested in the show are these individual characters. Not how the prison system is unfair. It did shed light on that and brought awareness, which is great. But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a fictional show about human stories and that's what made us connect. If they changed the whole cast and brought new characters I wouldn't be interested, because I connected with these specific characters. Hell, for me the show would only focus on the original characters from season 1, because those are the ones I actually care about. So I liked when they used to say that Jenji didn't set out to be be an activist or political when writing the show, but that it ends up being a byproduct of writing human stories. I liked that point of view. But its like the media put so much pressure on them to be political and is always bringing that up that now most of the focus of the press is in that and not about the individual characters. The actors themselves seem to have been trained to push the focus on that. Its annoying.

Actually, pretty much everyone vilifies "pre-branding Piper", and more accurately "pre-branding late S3-S4 Piper" (let us not forget her sending Alex back to jail or getting Stella to Max). Because during that time, she is the worst inmate in Litchfield, up until Maria - because of Piper's actions, natch - surpasses her. I don't remember anyone saying that post-branding Piper was worthy to be hated (and I don't think she is, at least not in this thread).

Maria, whose crime is likely no worse than Piper's - probably drug trafficking without being the leader herself. With the caveat that Piper was born in a rich, white family while Maria was born from a drug lord.

The reason "Panty business Piper" is so hated is because she becomes a gang leader only to satisfy her enormous ego. She doesn't need the extra money, she just want to show that she can be #1, and it has horrible consequences for everyone in Litchfield. So no, it's not unjustified to hate pre-branding Piper when you compare her past life with many inmates' who became criminals because their life was utterly shitty and/or they had no other choice - and who, for some of them, actively try to become better despite being jailed.

edited 15th Jun '17 8:34:18 AM by Julep

And yet nobody bothers to look introspectively or analyze WHY Piper started a panty business. It was a power thing. LISTEN to Piper. "I think I've been trying to win prison" She wanted to rebel. This has been in her nature. The Prometheus side to her. Yeah, it sucks she turned into a megalomaniac, but understand the reasons. I hated for it. I didn't like her. I'm not trying to justify her actions, I'm trying to give a defense as to why she behaved in the way that she did. It didn't come out of nowhere. She's trapped and isolated in a box. She wanted to taste freedom and power.

I don't deny that, but when put next to many women who had to resort to crime not for freedom or power but for self-preservation or survival, it realy looks petty and unsympathetic. And when she jeopardizes everyone's well-being on that road to "freedom and power", it is normal for viewers to start to hate her, just like it is normal for them to stop hating her once she gets far more than she deserved.

Ergo, Piper is a dumbass, not malicious.

She is both during early S4. Some of her actions can be seen as "dumbass" (even the white pride movement), but others are a mixture of dumb and malicious (when she sics Piscatella on the Latinas) and others are 100% malicious (sending Stella to Max).

I hated Stella. She's pathetic. And that's what you do. Insubordination, you punish people who don't follow the rules. She stole her money. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT??!! For her to lay down and do nothing. If this was Tony Soprano, you would root for him, buy him a beer and pat him on the back. But not Piper. No. Piper's a woman. We can be as misogynistic as we want.

What the...what the everloving fuck is misogyny doing here? You are the one repeating that Piper isn't as bad as other inmates, yet somehow her morality should be compared to Tony Soprano?

But if you insist, the closest thing to mob bosses Litchfield has are Red and Vee. And Piper is better than Vee, but she is undeniably a worst leader than Red. Red never sent any of her girls to Max, even when they disappointed or betrayed them. For that matter, Red genuinely cares for the well-being of her underlings, while Piper doesn't give two fucks about them - see her treatment of Hapakuka.

So yeah, pre-branding Piper's hehavior is worst than what a serial-killing Russian mobster does.

I see John over sympathizes with Piper. She really did deserve the hate for the first half of season 4, up til the karmic branding.

So, Season 6 dropped on Friday. Has anyone seen it and if so, what are your thoughts?

Personally I knew it was gonna be good once Piper asked where Alex was in the dream sequence and Alex Trebek went “I’m here bitch!” I’m sorry but that was hilarious.

Edited by Beatman1 on Jul 30th 2018 at 12:03:32 PM

Just finished the first season. While I knew this was a prison show I didn't expect it to get that dark. So far my favorite characters are Taystee, Poussey, Red, and Fischer and while I want to like Fig she's a bit too shady for my liking.

As far as the love triangle with Piper, Alex, and Larry goes I honestly think Larry was the only one in the right, at least so far. All Piper's done ischeat on him and lie to him while the worst he's done is put their private life out to the public and feel sorry for himself, which, while selfish, isn't as bad as Piper's lying and cheating. And Alex? I'm an entire season in and I've yet to be given a reason to like her. All she's done is play victim and she comes across as manipulative both in flashbacks and the present, the sole exception being her history with her dad which isn't enough to make me like her.

Overall I enjoyed the first season though I'm not sure if I want to continue given the things I've heard and read about future seasons, particularly Poussey's death. I do have one question though. Does the violence ever reach the level of the first season finale again or even worse? That scene where Pennsatucky slit her hand in the shower and the final minute or so of season one were too brutal for me so if the violence reaches that level or gets worse I might want to check out now/prior to then.

Re: Season 6. Spoilering my comments below. Seriously huge spoilers, be warned before reading.

Really liked it, but I suspect it's going to be a hugely divisive season, more even than previous ones were. A lot of the main cast were excised (though they could come back) and the replacements...nowhere near as good. I actually did like Badison, despite the fact that she was a playground bully with no clear motivation besides having been bullied herself. Which is weak writing really. I also enjoyed Carol, despite the fact that she has basically no redeeming features.

Ultimately that leads to my big issue with the season - there's no Catharsis Factor. It's a pure Downer Ending, with even Piper's release coming off negatively because she's separated from Alex, and it's a massive example of white privilege in action. Bianca is facing deportation, Taystee has been found guilty of Piscatella's murder, and no good karma seems to be befalling anyone. Sure, the monstrous Barb and Carol have killed each other, but even at that there's no real satisfaction, and neither Badison nor Daddy got any kind of resolution, good or bad.

There's very little in the way of goodness to cling to here. Black Cindy and Bursett sell Taystee down the river for their own ends (the former feels guilty but doesn't get a resolution to that either), Caputo's good intentions are clearly futile, Fig remains as selfish/jaded as ever, Linda has learned exactly nothing from her experiences on the other side and is set on revenge, Nicky's position remains as hopeless as ever, Alex seems to still have nothing but Piper (what with having apparently flushed that grad school application)... am I missing something? There is no hope here.

Don't get me wrong, it was still highly enjoyable, gripping TV. And maybe this is just the classic strategy of the writers putting characters up trees so rocks can be thrown at them. But I seriously hope next season is more positive.

It may even be that next season is the last. Piper is now heavily implied to be about to start writing the book the series itself is based on. Maybe that will change things? Maybe the research she does and what she writes will allow at least a couple of characters to get happy endings? The show itself doesn't need Piper; she's barely been the main protagonist for quite a while now, and even if she is, her story is but one of many they have been and could be telling, but I'm not sure I want it to just go on and on and on forever. Might be that at 7 seasons, a proper conclusion is needed, the show going out on a high.

Just my two pennies!

It just hit me, and well, spoilers if you never read the memoir...

The real Piper, who is still a consultant, ended up with Larry, and he found the memoir to be a touching gift. So I’m gonna call it now, Alex will die in the next and final season and Piper will end up with Larry.

The series really stopped following the book around episode 2 of the second season, so I wouldn't really bet any money on the show creators getting back on track after all this time.