Are there too many "Otaku-Pandering" Anime

I vaguely recall reading a few years ago an article that said Fruit Basket had outsold Spiderman comics that year.

Not sure if they meant the small regular comics or the tradebacks in Spiderman's case. If the latter, then just a few small differences include your average manga volume being cheaper and slightly longer. It's easier to obtain all the volumes of a manga series, so continuity isn't as much a problem. And there's a perception of there being more variety. Heck, I keep up with three Western comics, Transformers, Fables, and Elephantmen, none of which are of the Superhero genre and I still think of Superman whenever someone mentions comic books to me.

Yep, I would say it's mostly the bad reputation that comics have.

Plus, comics continuity and that of other adaptations are vastly different. For example, many X-Men adaptations are based off elements of Claremont's run. To people who watch that, the stuff in Marvel NOW! must seem totally odd.

You know, I've been meaning to pick up Fables and Elephantmen. Are they as good as I've heard?

edited 9th May '13 11:42:56 AM by Chaosjunction

I've always liked Fables. Elephantmen is a lot more introspective and deals with more episodic stories with a loose connection to each other. It's more like a crime show than a mystery novel if that tells you anything.

One point that I have not seen clearly spelled out: what matters in production is not what otaku want but what the studios think they will buy. If clichés are being abused, it's not because they are liked but because they can be made reliably, whilst original material is a gamble.

The most obvious of Guilty Crown's (many) problems is that it had both too much and too little fanservice: a girl-groping scene would be dropped where it made no sense and would not be followed up on. For anyone following the story, it's jarring. Whilst for someone who might like the fanservice it's too short and token to be of any interest.

Fanservice that the creators do not care for but inserted because they think it will appeal to a demographic. You may find the eroticism of some Shaft works to be excessive or distracting, but they certainly put artistic love into it.

And it seems to work in that these made-by-template shows are profitable, but they certainly aren't successful. It's not a coincidence that Nyarko San had one of the best runs in merchandise last year. It has all the appeal of the harem genre, but avoids its most obnoxious clichés and it's obvious that everyone who worked on it loved what they did.

Another thing: some western fans bemoan the rise of softcore porn in the past few years, but it seems to me to be a return to the norm if you take a broader perspective. In the eighties the OVA market, then much more active in relation to television than today, was dominated by what was termed panty-and-nipple shows. Some fans preferred those to today's censoring, but you can hardly say they had higher artistic aspirations.

There's been talk of a pavlovian response among otaku, when seeing some trope in its most basic form invokes all the feeling that would normally come from proper storytelling, but I have not seen any good evidence for it. I think more likely is that they regard such shows as merely pornographic and without further merit.

Overrall, I see the studios as having the same problems of calculated appeal as Hollywood sequels, with the difference that they are after a much narrower segment of the population. I'm not convinced that it's worse than, say, the American comics market.

Would the idol-genre count as otaku-pandering (to either sexes) ?

The upper ranks of Amazon.jp's video bestsellers is dominated by idol groups (for this past week at least). A guy idol (I think). One all-girl idol group. One all-boy idol group (with two spots).

/really starting to think that Japanese media has to start targeting both genders, instead of just one

There are idol otaku, yes. Though there is actually an idol anime aimed for little girls and all, so I guess idols aren't otaku exclusive or anything.

edited 10th May '13 10:06:49 AM by slibyak

If they sell really well, wouldn't that mean they have a bigger audience? Also considering singers like Justin Bieber, Britney Spears have similar appeal in the West, it isn't a Japanese thing.

I think idols are vaguely otaku-ish in the "hip youth trend" sense. Some old conservative politicians might frown at them, but otherwise pretty accepted as a trending subculture.

I can't really think of a western equivalent, because western pop-music scenes are not called "nerdy" in any sense, not even in the same way as AAA video games, or Game of Thrones, but that's the basic idea.

It's true, that "fanservice" is one of these words, along with "pandering", that is completely backwards, as its usually used by fans to criticise scenes that they normally DON'T like, and in fact it's usually a mix of bad writing, and of a misguided aim at the wider demographic instead of the more plot-obsessed core fans.

edited 10th May '13 3:32:02 PM by Ever9

I use "fanservice" to mean anything titillating that is not explicit enough for me to call it pornographic and is not character-driven (id est, it's the characters being put on display rather than expressing their own sexuality). It is a very odd use of the word, but that's its normal currency nowadays.

It's true that I don't usually use the word for eroticism that I actually like, but I can tolerate a lot of incidental sexual elements if they don't detract from other things.

What's interesting about "fanservice" is, that even the older, wider definition that was about other elements than sexuality, was still basicallly defined as "shallow, manipulative elements", Like all the "X Porn" tropes, like fancy designs, visuals, self-referential gags, etc.

It's like whole fandoms are convinced that everyone else inside their fandom is an idiot, and they are the only ones who still want an interesting plot and good execution with high production values.

I don't see that the term is that pejorative. Usually it refers to something that is shallow, in that it is not meaningful beyond some immediate appeal, and narrow, in that the appeal only applies to an existing core of fans.

It need not be bad, but it adds little and should not come at the expense of broader appeal. That's how I've always seen it, the negative slant is more of a warning than a condemnation. It's not like "pandering to the base" in politics, where a government is genuinely betraying its duty to the citizens at large.

What is really odd is that the old sense of the word referred to things that only pre-existing hardcore fans of the show would get, but in the modern sense means things that will only appeal to only those of the right sexual orientation/tastes and, crucially, risks being repulsive to others. I guess that's the origin of the pejorative qualities here; not so much Sex Is Evil but that even light pornography can polarize the audience along sex-determined lines. It is not inherently sexist, but feels as such.

I was wrong - there are plans to ban.

http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/quick-update-stakes-rise-in-japanese-child-pornography-law-revision-debate/

The issues regarding the commercial exploitation of real children through “junior idol” type publicaitons will be completely untouched,

Damn it, Japan. Damn it.

Idiots.

Well, this almost certainly won't go through. The manga industry is up in arms about it, since they know that a mere threat of litigation will be enough to ruin a new manga. Plus, for added stupidity, last I checked the law will consider any character under 18 "children"...even though the age of consent in Japan is lower than that. Sixteen is the typical age, I believe, with 14 being the absolute lowest (but none of the provinces actually go that low).

So, yeah. Idiots.

Also,

Also, aren't a lot of the traditional genres weakening because they're ordinarily shonen or shojo, and there aren't enough kids around to watch those?

??? I actually heard it's the other way around.

That the younger generation is turned off by otaku-pandering anime.