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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2101: Nov 27th 2016 at 8:57:47 AM

Oh, I had forgotten about that initiative, voted on it a few weeks ago. I voted "no" of course.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#2102: Nov 27th 2016 at 11:15:46 AM

Did other cantons vote on that or was it exclusive to Zürich?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2103: Nov 27th 2016 at 11:20:34 AM

'twas a canton-level initiative, so only Zurich.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#2104: Dec 4th 2016 at 2:20:01 AM

Given the usual speed of such things, Uri and St Gallan might relent in 100 years. I'm not so sure about Appenzell, though. tongue

Some explanation: the Swiss domino pattern of change follows the general trend of heavily urbanized Franco-German, mainly-Protestant/ more secular Cantons ignite it, then the rest take an age to come around. Much grumbling ensues. Cantons do many things differently from each other: If you expect a blanket change because of a federal decree based on a single one, you've got another thing coming.

And, Appenzell usually stubbornly resists social change like nobody else. Uri might have a bull on its shield, but I often think Appenzell and it should swap. Bears aren't that tenaciously stubborn. tongue

Well, unless the people of Appenzell decide to confound everybody else in a show of aggressive defiance and vote to change ASAP, that is. Not an impossible thing, depending. Just, not on the topic of same-sex marriage, methinks. <_<

edited 4th Dec '16 2:32:20 AM by Euodiachloris

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#2105: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:24:37 AM

Trans-woman pleads for her life before being beaten to death.

I knew this was Brazil from the headline alone, for the country with one of the highest search for transsexual sex workers, this place reeks of hypocrisy.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#2106: Mar 9th 2017 at 10:22:28 AM

Bigotry and hypocrisy tend to go hand in hand. Look at all the homophobic politicians who turned out to be in the closet.

Does Brazil have the death penalty, by any chance?

edited 9th Mar '17 10:23:25 AM by Morgikit

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#2107: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:04:30 AM

According to The Other Wiki, no. The current constitution explicitly forbids it for civil crimes (its still a theoretical option for military crimes like war crimes and treason during wartime), last execution was in 1876.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Brazil#Law

Looks like Brazil was way ahead of the curve on this issue.

edited 9th Mar '17 11:07:16 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#2108: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:42:33 PM

[up][up]Officially? Nope. Extra officially? Too much for anyone to be comfortable with, really.

[up]That was the last official execution we had, simply writing off executions as suicide, medical complications or the work of rival gangs happens all the time. Including the infamous brand of jail justice where you simply leave a criminal in a crowded cell, hint or even say aloud what his crime was (child molester, wife beater, rapists, etc), leave the jail for a while and return to pick up the body after the other inmates are done with it.

Also due to being a dictatorship up to the 80's Brazil had a lot of deaths by the hands of the state, none with a trial however.

I know the State where that happened, I have an uncle living there. It is one of our most violent and lawless states and murder happens for petty reasons on a daily basis. It is also one of the poorest and most socially conservative ones.

I'd say the killers would probably the walk but this time there were cameras.

If the justice actually does its job because of the repercussion they will get something between 12 to 30 years if for some miracle it qualifies as femicide but since this is will be qualified homicide they will be facing the 12 to 30 years of jail depending of the circumstances.

edited 9th Mar '17 12:43:46 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#2109: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:40:41 PM

Honestly? 12 years is probably more time then they would get here in the US.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#2110: Mar 13th 2017 at 12:28:13 PM

Crossposting from US and French politics threads: French LGBT activist 'kidnapped and raped by man angry at Donald Trump being mocked'.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#2111: Mar 28th 2017 at 11:00:52 AM

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39292599

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/03/26/transgender-activists-in-guyana-are-fighting-against-archaic-laws/

Since we don't hear much about Guyana in the news. Trans activists are fighting against a law that criminalizes crossdressing for "lewd" purposes as determined by the courts.

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#2112: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:14:09 PM

A little late but I was still a little scrambled after getting back from a three week vaction to Japan when the news came out.

The Australian state of Queensland has passed legislation removing 'gay panic' defence

Among Australian states that only leaves South Australia where it's still a valid legal defence and the same group who campaigned to get it repealed in Queensland are preparing to mount a similar campaign in South Australia.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2113: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:15:53 PM

What the Hell is that? Is it a generic "killing to defend/revenge against rape is legal" kind of law?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2114: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:20:16 PM

"The defendant alleges to find the same-sex sexual advances so offensive and frightening that it brings on a psychotic state characterized by unusual violence." per Wikipedia.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#2115: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:21:25 PM

[up][up]Legalized murder if the victim is not straight.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#2116: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:24:25 PM

Ah, the good, old "I had to: they flagrantly existed at me!" excuse. tongue

edited 28th Mar '17 3:24:54 PM by Euodiachloris

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#2117: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:25:11 PM

I've always found it to be a terrible defence. Because "Oh, I snapped and murdered someone because I found that they might be attracted to me" is horrifying, and what if there are other triggers? If anyone actually tries to use that, they should be sent to a psychologist immediately.

Not Three Laws compliant.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#2118: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:42:03 PM

True dat.

I'm trying to wrap my head around it. I think the idea behind it is a bit like Johnny Bravo getting beat up by every girl he uncouthly hits on.

But, you know, lethal.

Or maybe the fear is, like, "If that person of the same gender seduces me, then my entire life will be ruined and I myself will be Defiled Forever! My future, my status, my self-esteem, these are things worth killing for!"

edited 28th Mar '17 3:42:18 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#2119: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:40:11 PM

It's a plea of temporary insanity, with whatever legal baggage that carries within the particular jurisdiction.

Medinoc Chaotic Greedy from France Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Chaotic Greedy
#2120: Mar 28th 2017 at 10:29:01 PM

Quite similar to the "affluenza" defense in that regard, I think.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2121: Mar 29th 2017 at 12:02:43 AM

Except that the affluenza kid was put into psychiatric care, while I'm assuming that this defence doesn't require that.

[up][up] See I don't get how one could argue that such insanity is temporary, say someone honestly did think that way, I'd say that's pretty good grounds for them being considered permanently insane, at least until trained professionals can get them to not think that way.

edited 29th Mar '17 12:04:14 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#2122: Mar 29th 2017 at 12:46:39 AM

Ignore. Doublepost due to browser freeze

edited 29th Mar '17 12:49:19 AM by KnightofLsama

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#2123: Mar 29th 2017 at 12:48:18 AM

Legalized murder if the victim is not straight.

Strictly speaking in Queensland at least it reduced the charge of murder to one of manslaughter, at least in the case that sparked the campaign for the repeal.

More information at The Other Wiki

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#2124: Apr 22nd 2017 at 10:51:57 AM

Cross posted from the Russian thread

So, that report that was quickly dismissed of Chechen authorities arresting and torturing gays for the crime of being gay is true after all.

I doubt Russian authorities will do anything about it because treating homosexuals like human beings is clearly a deranged western value meant to subvert Russian traditional values and therefore should be sternly fought by the Russian totally not homoerotic strong men.

‘They NY Times: Starve You. They Shock You’: Inside the Anti-Gay Pogrom in Chechnya

GROZNY, Russia — It was supposed to be a night out. But for the young man who calls himself Maksim, as for scores of other gay men arrested in a pogrom this month in Russia’s Chechnya region, it pivoted into nearly two weeks of beatings and torture.

Maksim said it had started with a chat room conversation with “a very good old friend who is also gay,” and who suggested that they meet at an apartment. When Maksim arrived, however, he was greeted not by his friend but by agents who beat him. Later, they strapped him to a chair, attached electrical wires to his hands with alligator clips and began an interrogation.

“They yelled, ‘Who else do you know?’” Maksim said, and zapped him with current from time to time. “It was unbearably painful; I was hanging on with my last strength,” he added. “But I didn’t tell them anything.”

Gay men have never had an easy life in Chechnya. But the targeted, collective punishment of gays that began last month under its pro-Kremlin leader, Ramzan A. Kadyrov, is a new turn in the region’s long history of rights abuses. Continue reading the main story Related Coverage

Chechen Authorities Arresting and Killing Gay Men, Russian Paper Says APRIL 1, 2017 U.N. Experts Condemn Killing and Torture of Gay Men in Chechnya APRIL 13, 2017 Chechen Leader’s Advice on Women: Lock Them In MAY 20, 2015 THE FEMALE FACTOR Chechnya Coerces Women on Dress, Activists Say SEPT. 27, 2010

Novaya Gazeta, an opposition newspaper, first reported the pogrom, saying that at least 100 gay men had been arrested and three killed in the roundup. Human Rights Watch corroborated those findings.

The sweep has been widely condemned by Western governments, the United Nations and rights groups. Activists in Russia have set up an underground network to spirit the victims out of Chechnya and to protect them from potentially violent reprisals from their families and others. The victims use assumed names in their everyday dealings.

The following account is based on interviews with Maksim, who is in his 20s, and two other gay men who were detained by Chechen security agents.

Homosexuality is taboo in Chechnya and the mostly Muslim surrounding areas of the Caucasus region in southern Russia. “This society is highly homophobic,” said Ekaterina L. Sokiryanskaya, Russia project director for the International Crisis Group and an authority on Chechnya. “Homosexuality is condemned. It is believed Islam considers it a great sin.”

Nevertheless, before the crackdown, gay men in Chechnya could at least lead social lives, if heavily closeted ones, Maksim said. They met largely in private chat rooms on social networking sites with names like the Village or What the Mountains Are Silent About.

“When two gay men meet, they don’t tell one another their true names,” Maksim said. Men met at cafes or at apartments rented for a night, he said. “Nobody suspected my sexual orientation, not even my best friends.”

The crackdown began after Gay Russia, a rights group based in Moscow, applied for permits for gay pride parades in the Caucasus region, prompting counterprotests by religious groups, the men said. In Chechnya, it became something even worse — a mass “prophylactic” cleansing of homosexuals, the security service agents told the gay men as they rounded them up.

The men were held for as little as a day or as long as several weeks, according to Human Rights Watch and to interviews with gay men who later escaped the region. Some “returned to their families barely alive from beatings,” said Tanya Lokshina, Russia program director for Human Rights Watch.

Among the fatalities documented by the organization were one man who succumbed during torture and two others who died in “honor killings” by relatives after the police released them.

“Human Rights Watch has been getting numerous reports about attacks by security services under Ramzan Kadyrov’s control, and those reports are extremely disturbing,” Ms. Lokshina said. “This is another opportunity to reinforce the culture of fear.”

The Chechen authorities’ response to the global outrage over the pogrom has provoked new incredulity. In a telephone interview, Mr. Kadyrov’s spokesman, Alvi Karimov, said the reports of an anti-gay pogrom had to be false because such men did not exist in Chechnya.

“In Grozny, have you ever noticed people who, by their appearance or manners, resemble people who are oriented in the wrong way?” Mr. Karimov asked.

“A policy is developed for a problem,” he said, referring to a report that said the arrests were official policy. “I can officially say there is no policy because there is no problem. If there were a problem, there would be a policy.”

In a televised meeting with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia on Wednesday, Mr. Kadyrov characterized as “libelous” news reports that the security services in Chechnya had been persecuting gay men.

And on Thursday, Mr. Putin’s spokesman, Dmitri S. Peskov, told journalists that the Russian authorities had found no evidence that the Chechen police had arrested gay men.

But it quickly became clear to Maksim and the other men that the Chechen authorities were applying the same tactics used by Russia and by Mr. Kadyrov to suppress an Islamist insurgency in the region over the past decade.

Security service agents took to posing as gay men looking for dates on the Village and in other chat rooms, or persuaded those they had already captured to lure acquaintances, those arrested said in interviews.

Fear spread among gay Chechens. “If they caught him, they will get to me,” said a 20-year-old student who identified himself as Ilya and who was interviewed at a safe location outside Chechnya. Ilya fled days before the police showed up at his home, he learned later.

The authorities briefly detained another young man, who identified himself as Nohcho, after a friend informed on him during an interrogation. “I don’t blame him,” Nohcho said of the friend. “We are not heroes. We’re just gay guys. They starve you. They shock you.”

That, it seems, is essentially what happened to Maksim, who had been corresponding with his gay acquaintance for some time. “One day, he suggested we meet for a drink,” Maksim said. “And because we knew each other a long time, I did not suspect he would be capable of something like this.”

When Maksim entered the apartment where they had agreed to meet, security officers roughed him up. Five other men were already in the apartment, lured by the same ruse, he said. His account of the deception used to detain him was consistent with others documented by Human Rights Watch and with the accounts of the two other gay men interviewed separately for this article.

All six of the men in the apartment were transferred to a makeshift cell in an abandoned building, where they were tortured with electricity one by one, Maksim said.

After 11 days, he was released to a male relative, who was told that Maksim was gay. The security officers told the captives’ male relatives that, if they had any honor, they would kill the young men, Maksim and Ilya said.

Maksim’s father threatened to beat him but refrained when his son showed him the bruises he already had. Instead his father said, “I should kill you.”

Fearing for his life, Maksim turned to a gay rights group, the Russian LGBT Network, based in St. Petersburg, which has established an emergency, round-the-clock volunteer group to help gay men escape the region.

To reassure the victims they are trying to help, the activists have taken extraordinary precautions, operating virtually as a partisan cell behind enemy lines, though they have done nothing illegal under Russian law.

“These people don’t trust anybody,” said Olga Baranova, director of the Moscow Community Center, a support group for gays that is part of the volunteer network helping gay men flee Chechnya.

After arriving at the safe location outside Chechnya, several young men said they had suspected that the volunteer group was also a trap but had no other option but to accept the help, Ms. Baranova said. “They say, ‘We didn’t believe you were real,’” she said. “‘We thought this was the last effort to round up whoever was left.’”

The network bought airplane tickets for Chechen gay men, found safe houses and arranged for doctors to treat those who had been badly beaten.

“Gays in Chechnya and the North Caucasus are in lethal danger,” Igor Kochetkov, director of the Russian LGBT Network, said in a telephone interview. “People whose partners are detained have every reason to believe they will be arrested. It is very hard not to name the names under torture.”

Inter arma enim silent leges

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